Enmity post march 2015 patch

[dasva]

As a pld I find keeping hate on one mob is even easier know.... which makes since considering most of my hate already was from non dmg sources. Make sure flash is up before you start fighting something strong and then spam jas and flash once you are on it. Good dt sets help too as you shouldn't really be eating 400-500 dmg attacks all that often

[TummieGaruda]

I know it isn't much of a test but after the update I went outside Adoulin with a PLD trust and tried to see how much damage it would take to pull hate off of a fresh provoke at the start of a fight. From my limited testing, 2500 dmg at the start couldn't pull hate off provoke, but 3000 dmg could. Based on the patch notes, the decrease in enmity changes as the gap between player level and monster level increases so it may be a little difficult to pin down CE and VE values for dealing damage.

[Cyleena]

Being a pretty much full time whm for the last 6 yrs I have noticed how much better the pld hold hate. I rarely get curing hate now. Even in Vagary with the NM the hate seem to be better if pld holding but the fodder mobs hate is weird in there. Loving how the pld are holding hate better, so I do not end up being the whm tank though I do have to say whm tanking is kinda fun. I have held many NM on whm in the past while whatever group I am in recovers from whatever has happened. lol Back in the day before the delve changes (before delve was scaled) it used to be fun to hold Tojil, Dakuwaqa, or whatever NM we were fighting while on whm.

[vivbiibasjiu]

Being a pretty much full time whm for the last 6 yrs I have noticed how much better the pld hold hate. I rarely get curing hate now. Even in Vagary with the NM the hate seem to be better if pld holding but the fodder mobs hate is weird in there. Loving how the pld are holding hate better, so I do not end up being the whm tank though I do have to say whm tanking is kinda fun. I have held many NM on whm in the past while whatever group I am in recovers from whatever has happened. lol Back in the day before the delve changes (before delve was scaled) it used to be fun to hold Tojil, Dakuwaqa, or whatever NM we were fighting while on whm.

I don't know about this, as a geomancer I pulled hate on the megaboss around 40% after converting and cure 4ing myself after running out of MP so I could continue casting luopons... I was watching my hate pretty well and all it took is a cure 4 to get the megaboss the alliance had been nuking like crazy to run after me, with enmity -5 merits and a lot of -enmity gear in my curing set. It just seems a bit wonky

[Sechs]

Maybe tanks had yet to build a decent amount of hate on the target when you did what you did.
Still, I reckon there's something to tweak about healing and buffing spells.

Makes me wonder why they didn't reduce the enmity generated by those spells. Were they afraid that tank jobs who use those spells to keep hate (PLD? RUN?) would have had a harder job generating/mantaining hate, were they to nerf the enmity generated?
If that was their reasoning behind the lack of reduction for those categories of spells, wouldn't it have been a smarter choice to still perform a reduction (granted a smaller was was needed compared to the damage>enmity one) but then add a reverse "Tranquil Heart" job trait to PLD and RUN (and maybe to Yonin for NIN, when activated) applying to all these spells categories?

It's too obvious, maybe I'm missing something important.

[dasva]

I don't think that's it Sechs... most buffs give essentially no hate since the last enmity fiasco and plds haven't really used cures for hate since they started getting haste buffs.

I think they were thinking cure enmity was fine and only dmg needed to be tweaked. And really against a pld or run using their hate skills you shouldn't be able to pull hate off them most the time. Only times I've really lost it recently was during resets or extended time petrified, paralyzed, stunned etc especially early in fight. Or when overeager dds/blms start going all out while I'm still pulling it to where I'm going to tank it. Heck I've even managed to keep hate on pld right after avatar resets on D recently against my whm mule

[Cyleena]

I don't know about this, as a geomancer I pulled hate on the megaboss around 40% after converting and cure 4ing myself after running out of MP so I could continue casting luopons... I was watching my hate pretty well and all it took is a cure 4 to get the megaboss the alliance had been nuking like crazy to run after me, with enmity -5 merits and a lot of -enmity gear in my curing set. It just seems a bit wonky

Were you nuking as well? Also, like Sechs mentioned in the post under yours maybe pld did not build up much hate yet? I normally try to not cure the pld straight away, and let him self cure a little before I take over. As most of the people that play FFXI with me know I cure people like crazy that I am in runs with, and I normally before SE fixed some enmity issues pull hate a lot because of it. I am noticing I am not pulling hate hardly at all now. People still need to let the pld build some hate before doing stuff to NM but noticed after they do that it is a lot harder to get NM hate off them now.

[Cyleena]

Maybe tanks had yet to build a decent amount of hate on the target when you did what you did.
Still, I reckon there's something to tweak about healing and buffing spells.

Makes me wonder why they didn't reduce the enmity generated by those spells. Were they afraid that tank jobs who use those spells to keep hate (PLD? RUN?) would have had a harder job generating/mantaining hate, were they to nerf the enmity generated?
If that was their reasoning behind the lack of reduction for those categories of spells, wouldn't it have been a smarter choice to still perform a reduction (granted a smaller was was needed compared to the damage>enmity one) but then add a reverse "Tranquil Heart" job trait to PLD and RUN (and maybe to Yonin for NIN, when activated) applying to all these spells categories?

It's too obvious, maybe I'm missing something important.

Enmity issue is definitely still wonky but I always try to let the pld build hate still before I cure them. If you let them self cure, and only do emergency cure if needed for a few minutes they build up hate fast and then you can take over helping cure them. I have noticed I rarely if ever pull hate from them on NMs if I do that now. Fodder mobs are totally different their hate is very weird.

[Cyleena]

I don't think that's it Sechs... most buffs give essentially no hate since the last enmity fiasco and plds haven't really used cures for hate since they started getting haste buffs.

I think they were thinking cure enmity was fine and only dmg needed to be tweaked. And really against a pld or run using their hate skills you shouldn't be able to pull hate off them most the time. Only times I've really lost it recently was during resets or extended time petrified, paralyzed, stunned etc especially early in fight. Or when overeager dds/blms start going all out while I'm still pulling it to where I'm going to tank it. Heck I've even managed to keep hate on pld right after avatar resets on D recently against my whm mule

Hate reset is obviously going to make hate go wonky, and extended petrify early in fight etc means the tank probably has not built up much hate before that even landed if early in fight. Overreager dd/blms going out on NM before tank even builds hate speaks for itself. lol.

I have done events for 6 years on main whm in a endgame shell , and I just know from my experience (everyone probably has their own experience on this) is that I definitely notice a difference with curing tank on NM's and not pulling hate now. Like I said as long as I give pld chance to use abilities, and self cure some it is no problem curing the heck out of them now if I want, and I do not end up tanking. Maybe they did nothing with cure enmity but made other aspects of tanking even better for holding hate but whatever they did is making it so I do not have to tank on whm anymore sadly. Everyone who plays ffxi with me knows how much I love whm tanking. I even made a DD set for it....sadly it will collect dust now.

[dasva]

Hate reset is obviously going to make hate go wonky, and extended petrify early in fight etc means the tank probably has not built up much hate before that even landed if early in fight. Overreager dd/blms going out on NM before tank even builds hate speaks for itself. lol.

I have done events for 6 years on main whm in a endgame shell , and I just know from my experience (everyone probably has their own experience on this) is that I definitely notice a difference with curing tank on NM's and not pulling hate now. Like I said as long as I give pld chance to use abilities, and self cure some it is no problem curing the heck out of them now if I want, and I do not end up tanking. Maybe they did nothing with cure enmity but made other aspects of tanking even better for holding hate but whatever they did is making it so I do not have to tank on whm anymore sadly. Everyone who plays ffxi with me knows how much I love whm tanking. I even made a DD set for it....sadly it will collect dust now

Not sure why you are explaining them... they all kind of speak for themselves as being unusual situations (or ones that shouldn't exist). Was just an example of how uncommon it is to lose hate and only happens in certain circumstances. That said petrify para etc doesn't have to be real early if it lasts awhile. Between not doing anything and taking more dmg from no blocks and just not keeping up with VE it's fairly easy to lose hate if you don't do anything but eat dmg for a minute if it happened within the first couple minutes of a fight. Depending of course how all out everyone else is going. Of course this is all solved by having mages actually cure status ailments reasonably fast which in fights that you use a pld should be quick since you should be the only person they are focusing on

Cure enmity was lowered while ago. iirc it was done back in the last dmg enmity update. And tranquil heart even farther back. This update was specifically just dmg enmity and upped the cap and did "Enmity will now decrease based on the gap between player/pet level/item level and monster level. Abilities that generate a fixed amount of enmity, such as healing magic and elemental magic, are exempt from this change.
" whatever the heck that means That said cures are still a poor not a great way of getting enmity now. If you want to tank on whm flash spam like a pld maybe /blu and spam those hate spells and find those few +enmity pieces on whm and take off those -enmity ones... though without a plds dmg mitigation you are going to bleed hate like crazy which is a big point in there favor... they don't really lose hate that much compared to everyone else.

[Sechs]

I keep playin in different events, different situations with different people and I keep getting the impression that atm Enmity is working so much better than before the patch, despite some flaws here and there.
I dunno, I must be unawaringly biased or something.

[BerenTebogo]

In events where you have a tank it can be great.

Low manning stuff with a BST + RDM is currently pretty awful.

Oh do 4k -> 4k -> 2k SC? Don't worry, 1 cure IV will take that hate right from your lizard.

[Cyleena]

In events where you have a tank it can be great.

Low manning stuff with a BST + RDM is currently pretty awful.

Oh do 4k -> 4k -> 2k SC? Don't worry, 1 cure IV will take that hate right from your lizard.

Going to have to go in delve again soon. I have not tried out delve since the update but I have heard hate is pretty awful in there now with no tank.

[dasva]

In events where you have a tank it can be great.

Low manning stuff with a BST + RDM is currently pretty awful.

Oh do 4k -> 4k -> 2k SC? Don't worry, 1 cure IV will take that hate right from your lizard.

Clearly you need to go bst/whm and do a couple of cures and flashes for hate then snarl then onto your pet!

[Xenhas]

That can be dealt with by inviting only good mages. I.e. put put sets on and stand near the mob with viles remedies and panaceas to counter any given problem that asylum ect may not rid of. At least until after those 10 20 seconds where hate establishes.

Quoting because this is the guy who died as WHM and let the DD party wipe within a minute of Odin V2 by spamming curagas3+ before any hate was established.

[Bukadan]

It's the grape juice

[bechyni]

Quoting because this is the guy who died as WHM and let the DD party wipe within a minute of Odin V2 by spamming curagas3+ before any hate was established.

Quoted because this is the guy who almost let the PLD die during Divine Might II because he thought it was important to cast regen instead of curing while fighting the Elvaan.

[Capuchin]

I keep playin in different events, different situations with different people and I keep getting the impression that atm Enmity is working so much better than before the patch, despite some flaws here and there.
I dunno, I must be unawaringly biased or something.

It's clearly much improved as far as tanks keeping hate more easily.

Even trusts do a pretty good job! I'm actually enjoying Amchuchu a lot for messing around and keeping mobs off me pretty decently. Did some stuff like 2boxing ORK Skirmish in the past week, and even on things like skirmish NMs a trust tank did pretty well holding the mob's attention despite me using a DD and standing on the other side and not really holding back.

[Sechs]

Some weeks have passed, has anybody's opinion changed about all of this?

What I'm seeing happening around me is that you now need* a tank for a lot of content where you didn't need one before. And this is a good thing for a MMO imho, it's how things should be. It's the previous situation (where you hardly needed a tank) that was strange compared to how things should be in a MMO, and we got so used to that situation which lasted so much in time that many of us feel strange or awkward: "Omg now I need a tank for this".
This tells a lot about how wrong and how long the previous situation lasted.
Tank is pretty viable and enmity management does work. It works so good I forgot the last situation in time in the history of FFXI where it worked so fine.

There still are some things that need to be fixed and tweaked, but overall I still feel that, unexpectedly, they did quite a good job.




*
"need" is maybe not the right word. It's just more efficient/easy with a tank, a lot of things can still be done without but it now is much more annoying to do so without a tank. iLikeDis.

[Damane]

Some weeks have passed, has anybody's opinion changed about all of this?

What I'm seeing happening around me is that you now need* a tank for a lot of content where you didn't need one before. And this is a good thing for a MMO imho, it's how things should be. It's the previous situation (where you hardly needed a tank) that was strange compared to how things should be in a MMO, and we got so used to that situation which lasted so much in time that many of us feel strange or awkward: "Omg now I need a tank for this".
This tells a lot about how wrong and how long the previous situation lasted.
Tank is pretty viable and enmity management does work. It works so good I forgot the last situation in time in the history of FFXI where it worked so fine.

There still are some things that need to be fixed and tweaked, but overall I still feel that, unexpectedly, they did quite a good job.




*
"need" is maybe not the right word. It's just more efficient/easy with a tank, a lot of things can still be done without but it now is much more annoying to do so without a tank. iLikeDis.

i think the enmity update is ok. There is still the option to go with no tank by changing the SJ as a melee, which people just seem to blend out.