[OT] What exactely changed in dats that hindered datamining and much more?

[FNH]

They banned people from Guildwork or Ah.com forums?

We are talking about Guildwork right?

No my comments were in reference to the clipper fiasco and that thread got locked about baggage app.

People complain that those of us in the tech field don't have good customer service. Well the customers are a bunch of whiners most of the time who take it for granted and expect shit to be catered to them like a bunch of children. No one in any service industry likes most of the people who whine to them in this day and age.

Then why do it if you feel your customers are the scum of the earth?

Why is it fine for BG to get donations to stay open, but guildwork charges for half of its features and provides others free from the get go and it is different? I also agree with clipper going premium too (not the cost or methods really, but the principle) and I think everyone just doesn't understand.
It is like working X job to support yourself and getting a hobby that gets out of control and demands more of you. There comes a point where you either charge or it is not worth it to keep developing and supporting it.

EDIT: Shit, if we have a problem with this then why do people still use FFXIlolclopedia? After the scandal and buyout there you'd think if we cared we would stop using it (I almost never have to go there ).

BG donations are asking for help, I don't see anything wrong with that because they don't punish people for not donating and reward the one who do. Plus, I understand the finances behind running the site. And guildwork charging for premium features from day 1 is fine. Why? Because they never pretended they weren't out to make money. Business is perfectly fine, but to pretend otherwise is just poor character. And for the record I would have charged from day 1 on clipper. Being an adult and walking away from a hobby is fine too, but don't half-ass it and let it deteriorate. Hand the reins over or shut it down.

[Spicyryan]

Yeah, yeah clipper clipper.

Half the people are just upset something they came to rely on was taken, half the people came to expect it was something that would always be there after years, and everyone else was everything in between.
As I said I agree with it going premium after reading what Wicaan said about it, but I don't agree with the path it took. It was clear he got tired of the years worth of annoying jerkoffs over something he was kind enough to be giving.

People in the tech field don't think customers are the scum of the earth. Perhaps you just need to be in others shoes more to understand it clearer.

I can't say why Wic made it for all those years, but I imagine it was a hobby that turned into a gift to others that morphed into a nightmare.

There is nothing different about charging years down the road compared to charging from day 1. People are just sensitive and whine because they want it their way. The correct response is that if you don't like it then don't use it as it is just that simple.
It doesn't make him slimy because he made the choice to either stop something or be rewarded for it and continue providing for it. He earned what he has done, and should be thanked for it and then we move on. It is not like he put no thought into it,.

I know it is funny in a sorts that I think that AH.com should be handed off or at least assisted as the right thing to do, and not Clipper. However, there are major differences. One is a one of a kind site that has been a massive project and others have put mass amounts of time into it as well. From both user to those who oversee the site. It is something that has become a cornerstone of the game and is more intricate to its operation than clipper.
Clipper was and is not a unique product no one else can offer. We had cupper for awhile, and then Takao before Clipper even went premium.

People also are not taking the hard work of those from AH.com and reproducing it as their own or profiting off of it.

[Mojo]

FNH

Holy entitlement. You expect developers to make things for free and maintain them for you and you're surprised that they eventually become callous to the requests of the playerbase?

[FNH]

Holy entitlement. You expect developers to make things for free and maintain them for you and you're surprised that they eventually become callous to the requests of the playerbase?

You didn't read at all. Charge from day 1, or if you release something for free and it becomes "tiring" shut it down or pass it off. I never said they had to be free.

[Mojo]

You didn't read at all. Charge from day 1, or if you release something for free and it becomes "tiring" shut it down or pass it off. I never said they had to be free.

More entitlement? Asserting that devs shouldn't ask for money after an initial free release IS asking them to develop for free. Nobody is under any obligation (nor should they be) to follow your development cycle. It's their mind baby, they can do with it as they please. If you don't like that don't use it. If you feel like you can't live without it, figure out how to make it yourself.

[Spicyryan]

More entitlement? Asserting that devs shouldn't ask for money after an initial free release IS asking them to develop for free. Nobody is under any obligation (nor should they be) to follow your development cycle. It's their mind baby, they can do with it as they please. If you don't like that don't use it. If you feel like you can't live without it, figure out how to make it yourself.

At least someone else gets it.

[arus2001]

So, at what point does charging go from okay to olden NASA bot stupid?

If your interest is bettering the community experience, then free access is best. Accept donations. Pass it off when you're done/tired to someone who's ideally trustworthy.

There tends to be a fair amount of, "You'd be nothing without me!" that goes around in the FFXI third-party landscape, too often rooted in the inability to take criticism and admit mistakes. Without XI, they likely wouldn't even be on our radar. So in its own way, it's kinda shady to be profiting off SE's work on the side, or at least expecting to. Advocating the have/have-not aspect of pay walled third party tools is a whole 'nother can of worms.

[Malithar]

So in its own way, it's kinda shady to be profiting off SE's work on the side, or at least expecting to. Advocating the have/have-not aspect of pay walled third party tools is a whole 'nother can of worms.

Pretty off-topic, but considering how some games are very third party friendly, how quickly are paid tools C&D'd to hell and back? During my 2~ year stint in WoW, I don't ever recall reading or hearing of a paid third party tool that wasn't clearly RMT bait. Maybe it's the archaic nature of firmly saying no to any mods that created this whole backdoor-but-it's-ok behind the scenes issue?

[Spicyryan]

So, at what point does charging go from okay to olden NASA bot stupid?

If your interest is bettering the community experience, then free access is best. Accept donations. Pass it off when you're done/tired to someone who's ideally trustworthy.

There tends to be a fair amount of, "You'd be nothing without me!" that goes around in the FFXI third-party landscape, too often rooted in the inability to take criticism and admit mistakes. Without XI, they likely wouldn't even be on our radar. So in its own way, it's kinda shady to be profiting off SE's work on the side, or at least expecting to. Advocating the have/have-not aspect of pay walled third party tools is a whole 'nother can of worms.

It becomes that level of stupid when you believe the costistoodamnhigh.jpg

I don't know. Saying Clipsmcgimps betters the community is a bit of a stretch. Just like if there is an issue profiting off of a product someone else made why is it okay to buy phone cases, generic products, etc? It is a service someone offers and that is that.

[FNH]

More entitlement? Asserting that devs shouldn't ask for money after an initial free release IS asking them to develop for free. Nobody is under any obligation (nor should they be) to follow your development cycle. It's their mind baby, they can do with it as they please. If you don't like that don't use it. If you feel like you can't live without it, figure out how to make it yourself.

You still didn't read.

[Mojo]

You still didn't read.

Or perhaps I did and you have nothing more to say? I'm not the only drawing these conclusions from what you've said.

So, at what point does charging go from okay to olden NASA bot stupid?

If your interest is bettering the community experience, then free access is best. Accept donations. Pass it off when you're done/tired to someone who's ideally trustworthy.

There tends to be a fair amount of, "You'd be nothing without me!" that goes around in the FFXI third-party landscape, too often rooted in the inability to take criticism and admit mistakes. Without XI, they likely wouldn't even be on our radar. So in its own way, it's kinda shady to be profiting off SE's work on the side, or at least expecting to. Advocating the have/have-not aspect of pay walled third party tools is a whole 'nother can of worms.

It would only be stupid if nobody paid for it. I do recognize the shadiness of a pay wall although I don't feel like it would be an issue if third party tools weren't against the ToS to begin with.

[FNH]

Or perhaps I did and you have nothing more to say? I'm not the only drawing these conclusions from what you've said.

You and spicyryan. Enjoy that group lol.

[Spicyryan]

You and spicyryan. Enjoy that group lol.

Yeah, the group that doesn't whine about the choice of paying for something optional regardless of how long it was free. I mean this has never been done with anything on planet Earth before amirite?

Just for the fun of it. This is reminding me of:

Spoiler: show

[FNH]

Yeah, the group that doesn't whine about the choice of paying for something optional regardless of how long it was free. I mean this has never been done with anything on planet Earth before amirite?

If commenting on the perception of someone's character is whining then ok. You two seem to think I felt like developers should never make money(pretty sure both of you probably work in a cubicle in some tech field based on your replies), which was false. My stance was that it was slimy to have it for free for so long and then hide it behind a "donation". I am not asking you to like my pov, but at least get it right. Can you find me an example of something that was free for years, then people had to pay for it with no change to features or delivery?

[Spicyryan]

If commenting on the perception of someone's character is whining then ok. You two seem to think I felt like developers should never make money(pretty sure both of you probably work in a cubicle in some tech field based on your replies), which was false. My stance was that it was slimy to have it for free for so long and then hide it behind a "donation". I am not asking you to like my pov, but at least get it right. Can you find me an example of something that was free for years, then people had to pay for it with no change to features or delivery?

Maybe I have an office. Maybe I don't and I am in a warehouse. Maybe I called you a whiner because you decried his actions as slimy, and just did so again. If you didn't use his tool to cheat and then have something you took for granted taken away from you then you likely wouldn't be so butt hurt.

Why is it okay for things to go from paid to free, but not the other way around? What is wrong with people privatizing their intellectual property and deciding to profit off their headache?
Fees are levied all the time from companies and individuals in terms of ceasing to provide services they formerly did for free (Godaddy just did this with ad revenue to those renting their domains, etc), raise rates, etc. Why do I even have to type that to you as if it is not common sense? I also assume you meant specifically FFXI as if that changes things. As if the concept has to be popular in a gaming community to be used.

inb4"well if its a headache he should have handed it off"

[dasva]

Pretty off-topic, but considering how some games are very third party friendly, how quickly are paid tools C&D'd to hell and back? During my 2~ year stint in WoW, I don't ever recall reading or hearing of a paid third party tool that wasn't clearly RMT bait. Maybe it's the archaic nature of firmly saying no to any mods that created this whole backdoor-but-it's-ok behind the scenes issue?

That's what I'm thinking. When you make just making the game more playable against the rules breaking the rules to some extent kind of becomes accepted more by the general populace

[FNH]

Maybe I have an office. Maybe I don't and I am in a warehouse. Maybe I called you a whiner because you decried his actions as slimy, and just did so again. If you didn't use his tool to cheat and then have something you took for granted taken away from you then you likely wouldn't be so butt hurt.

There are 3 other options available. I don't have to use something to comment on it. Why don't you take your own advice and go stick your head in the sand when I post?


edit: Pretty sure this is going to keep going around in the same stupid circle.

[Spicyryan]

There are 3 other options available. I don't have to use something to comment on it. Why don't you take your own advice and go stick your head in the sand when I post?


edit: Pretty sure this is going to keep going around in the same stupid circle.

What are these three other options?

[FNH]

What are these three other options?

For a $25 donation I'll tell you.

[bechyni]

For a $25 donation I'll tell you.

http://media.giphy.com/media/2JBmA1Hdu39D2/giphy.gif