more magic testing

**Damane** · 2015-09-06 10:01

Originally Posted by Sechs

Languor alone vs Threnody alone.
I'm talking eyebelled stuff from years of playing bard since level 75, or being a mage in pt with a brd using threnodies. (languor didn't even exist at the time)
I've always been one of the few BRDs who always tried to stick the right threnody just because I'm OCD about that, but in the BRD community (and even more) it's been considered a "meh" debuff for like... forever. I remembre how many times I got laughed up by LS mates or leaders because of how little difference it made.
I gotta admit, I've always got the impression it made a very little difference myself.

Then Languor came up, many years later, and on whatever job I was I could notice quite an impressive difference. From never being able to stick a debuff, to being able to always stick it within max 3 casts.

Now this could all be the fruit of a massive bias of course, but I'm still somehow a bit skeptic given how long it lasted and how it was shared by many other people.

languor and focus were op as shit even before dunna and idris existed and before most geo spells got a buff. right on release on geo with no native enfeeb skill (we are talking about a enfeeb skill of /rdm lol since geo had no enfeeb skill). languor and focus allowed me to stick debuffs 100% of the time on tough+ enemys right outside of adoulin. There was no magic skill staves etc etc what we had, top 99 non ilvl gear. I am not sure if therondy allowed that.

**Sechs** · 2015-09-06 17:21

Originally Posted by Damane

languor and focus were op as shit even before dunna and idris existed and before most geo spells got a buff. right on release on geo with no native enfeeb skill (we are talking about a enfeeb skill of /rdm lol since geo had no enfeeb skill). languor and focus allowed me to stick debuffs 100% of the time on tough+ enemys right outside of adoulin. There was no magic skill staves etc etc what we had, top 99 non ilvl gear. I am not sure if therondy allowed that.

Considering Threnody has a value similar to that of dunna Languor (higher if you rule dunna out) it seems pretty clear to me there has to be some other factor at play.
When have you ever seen people shouting to bring BRDs to cast threnody because they were making a huge difference? Yet it happened with GEOs.
Ok, GEO stuff works on all elements and BRD is one at a time, and that's quite some difference of course.
But at the same time I'm still very skeptic that it's a 1:1 conversion, there has to be some other difference between elemental resistance and what Languor does.

**Fwahm** · 2015-09-06 17:36

While I don't bring bards just for threnody, I always ask ones we have to threnody the most important element if there's not enough geo support in the group. It makes a very big difference for enfeebles on stuff like T3 Escha-Zitah NMs if you aren't getting focus or languor.

**Martel** · 2015-09-06 17:45

If you doubt the current paradigm, there are two potentially productive things you can do about it.

1: Post on the OF asking SE to clarify the differences, if any, between elemental resistance potency and magic evasion potency. This one is "potentially productive" cause you might get an answer.

2: Test it yourself. Intensive, time consuming, and extremely annoying. But it would actually resolve things.

Well, or 3: Post on OF, wait a bit, then test.

**Protey** · 2015-09-06 18:19

I know when i do VW my BRD/WHM normally can't land Slow as a proc against Celaeno, but if I use Earth Threnody2 it can land. Anecdotal evidence, I know, but illustrates the point.

**Sechs** · 2015-09-06 18:30

Threnody 2 is quite a noticeable difference, but again 180 is over TWICE AS MUCH what Dunna languor does. Almost double what an Idris languor does.
While it does seem to be noticeable, it doesn't seem to be almost twice as powerful as an Idris languor. I can't believe I'm the only one with this feeling atm >.>'' You're making me feel like I'm crazy or paranoid or something.
But yes, you're right Martel, I'll see what I can do about it.

**dasva** · 2015-09-06 18:34

Maybe you are crazy.... anyways yeah there doesn't seem to be a lot of solid testing on this and the anecdotal seems to go both ways (which of course is why anecdotal is so meh). Personally I've seen rather large differences on threnody 1 partly cause my brd is a super gimp mule so it often needs a bit of help

**NynJa** · 2015-09-06 20:17

the eyeball test is usually wrong

**Sechs** · 2015-09-07 02:42

I concur with Ninja, but when it becomes a widespread thing among a large part of the users for long period of time, you kind start doubting that and wonder if it's true, instead than just a personal bias.

**Protey** · 2015-10-31 13:54

Testing of elemental enfeebles. Even with 301+ INT did not see any gain. So elemental enfeebles cap at 150 INT. Since everyone easily gets that with today's iLVL gear, one should gear solely for elemental magic skill and magic accuracy. You will want to change your BLM gearswap LUA, if you use Motenten's, as it points it towards your enfeebling magic set (assuming your enfeebling set uses enfeebling magic skill over elemental magic skill / magic accuracy).

**Sechs** · 2015-11-01 17:35

Did you test multiple enfeebles? (to exclude the chance that different spells have different caps).
Also are you talking about the Macc generated from INT, the Potency, or both?

I'm a bit confused because I used to believe INT was macc/potency for black magic enfeebles, and MND was macc/potency for white magic enfeebles.
But those recent posts from Matsui about changing stats for enfeebles kinda confused me and now I'm not sure how this works anymore...

Regardless of your answer, thanks for putting so much time into testing this, definitely useful.

**Fwahm** · 2015-11-01 17:40

Originally Posted by Sechs

Did you test multiple enfeebles? (to exclude the chance that different spells have different caps).
Also are you talking about the Macc generated from INT, the Potency, or both?

I'm a bit confused because I used to believe INT was macc/potency for black magic enfeebles, and MND was macc/potency for white magic enfeebles.
But those recent posts from Matsui about changing stats for enfeebles kinda confused me and now I'm not sure how this works anymore...

Regardless of your answer, thanks for putting so much time into testing this, definitely useful.

INT is macc/potency for black magic, MND is macc/potency for white magic.

Frazzle and Distract are the exception, where potency is MND instead.

**dasva** · 2015-11-01 17:44

Originally Posted by Sechs

Did you test multiple enfeebles? (to exclude the chance that different spells have different caps).
Also are you talking about the Macc generated from INT, the Potency, or both?

I'm a bit confused because I used to believe INT was macc/potency for black magic enfeebles, and MND was macc/potency for white magic enfeebles.
But those recent posts from Matsui about changing stats for enfeebles kinda confused me and now I'm not sure how this works anymore...

Regardless of your answer, thanks for putting so much time into testing this, definitely useful.

He said elemental enfeebles....

**Sechs** · 2015-11-02 05:41

Ungh >< totally didn't reed the "elemental" part of that.
I apologize...

**Protey** · 2016-01-02 01:53

GEO testing

Did testing of tier levels for the spells that have easier to determine results. For the most part I'm only including tiers above natural cap (746), but if anyone wants to know lower tiers of any of the spells below (except Indi-Haste.... testing exact haste values for several hundred skill levels is very, very tedious) for certain ranges then let me know.

Indi-Regen and Indi-Poison
These have the same values and go up at the same skill level

Spoiler: show

From this we see that values go up one every 20 to 21 skill levels and caps at a value of 30.

Formula: Potency = floor[1+(skill/20.688)]

Indi-Refresh

Spoiler: show

From this we see that values go up one every 180 skill levels and caps at a value of 6.

Formula: Potency = floor[1+(skill/180)]

Attributes (STR/DEX/etc)

Spoiler: show

From this we see that values go up one every 37 to 38 skill levels and caps at a value of 25.

Formula: Potency = floor[1+(skill/37.5)]

Indi-Haste
Values are divided by 1,024.

Spoiler: show

From this we see that the values go up 1/1024 every three to four skill levels and caps at a value of 307/1024.

Formula: Potency = floor[25+(skill/3.19148)]; where Potency needs to be divided by 1,024.

Indi-Fury

Spoiler: show

From this we see that the value goes up .3% to .4% every 11 to 12 skill levels and caps at a value of 34.7%.

Formula: Potency% = 4.6+(1/10)floor{(3.865)[floor[.991+(skill/11.68586)]]}

Indi-Barrier

Spoiler: show

From this we see that the value goes up .3% to .4% every 11 to 12 skill levels and caps at a value of 39.8%.

Formula: Potency% = 9.7+(1/10)floor{(3.862)[floor[.991+(skill/11.68586)]]}

Indi-Precision and Indi-Torpor
These have the same values and go up at the same skill level

Spoiler: show

From this we see that the value goes up one every 18 to 19 skill levels and caps at a value of 50.

Formula: Potency =floor (1+[(skill)(.054445)])

Indi-Voidance

Spoiler: show

From this we see that the value goes up one every 14 to 15 skill levels and caps at a value of 65.

Formula: Potency = floor(1.027+[(skill)(.0715)])

Indi-Wilt

Spoiler: show

From this we see that the value goes up .3% to .4% every 17 to 18 skill levels and caps at a value of 25%.

Formula: Potency% = 4.6+(1/10)(floor[(3.867)(floor[1.067+(skill/17.33)])])

Indi-Frailty

Spoiler: show

From this we see that the value goes up .3% to .4% every 29 skill levels and caps at a value of 14.9%.

Formula: Potency% = 2.7+(1/10)(floor[(3.96)(floor[(skill/29)-.01])])

There are a couple discrepancies from Camate's post: such as he put Indi-Refresh caps at 600 skill, when it actually caps at 900, Indi-Haste he rounded down to 29.9% when it's actually 307/1024 (yes there is a difference, the game doesn't round down haste %), and Indi-Frailty caps at 14.9% not 14.8%.

Looking at Camate's post though, there are some similarities between spells in terms of min/max values and geomancy+. So even though I didn't test Indi-Languor and Indi-Focus, the tier levels and amounts are most likely the exact same as Indi-Torpor and Indi-Precision. Same goes for Indi-Vex and Indi-Attunement most likely are the exact same as Indi-Voidance.

Thread: more magic testing

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