Paladin 3.0 - Now with +1 Button

[Irvy]

This, not many people seem to realize once you out class a content in HP threshold you're wasting stats by inflating your HP.

Actually when you outgear content regarding vit, your DPS should have outgeared the content too, so you don't need the extra DPS.

Also you will need the vitality if you do progression raiding in alexander savage, if it is designed the same way as in 2.X. Ofc if you don't do any progression raiding you don't need to go full vit.

[Churchill]

I never went full VIT for progression raiding. All of this is covered ad nauseum over the course of history but shit's situational.

[Carth]

Actually when you outgear content regarding vit, your DPS should have outgeared the content too, so you don't need the extra DPS.

Killing faster is always beneficial.

[Jem]

Especially as it shortens / skips problematic phases which is generally better on any HP requirement than more VIT once you're passed the threshold.

[Kaslo]

Killing faster is always beneficial.

^^

[Sketch]

Killing faster is always beneficial.

So at what ilvl can you move to all stats allocation of Strength, or can you do it immediately? I'm still just starting to gear up, have all VIT accessories, and am at ilvl 165. Going to go into Bissy X Wednesday with Ravana shortly after. I guess I'm trying to figure out what the optimum HP is for those 2.

Someone mentioned a while back that they are having a hard time holding hate just in the expert dungeons also. I also read that people are tanking in sword oath. Being in sword oath is usually the reason for not holding hate for me. What are some folks doing to hold the hate, while in Sword, large groups of mobs, and justifying being in sword with the extra dps?

-WG

[Gustave]

So at what ilvl can you move to all stats allocation of Strength, or can you do it immediately? I'm still just starting to gear up, have all VIT accessories, and am at ilvl 165. Going to go into Bissy X Wednesday with Ravana shortly after. I guess I'm trying to figure out what the optimum HP is for those 2.

Someone mentioned a while back that they are having a hard time holding hate just in the expert dungeons also. I also read that people are tanking in sword oath. Being in sword oath is usually the reason for not holding hate for me. What are some folks doing to hold the hate, while in Sword, large groups of mobs, and justifying being in sword with the extra dps?

-WG

Str.

Str stat allocation from the get go. Holding hate single target in sword oath shouldn't ever be a problem if you're keeping str down up.

[Jem]

I've just left all my stats in STR although admittedly I've not finished levelling (I had to do BRD first). Our solo tank for Rav Ex was like i165 or something and did just fine.

Holding hate with Sword Oath seems to be entirely dependent on how dickish DPS are. Any DPS who fully unloads at fight starts without popping an enmity reduction ability is likely going to tear hate (may need crit procs). Outside of that it seemed fine.

[Taint]

Actually when you outgear content regarding vit, your DPS should have outgeared the content too, so you don't need the extra DPS.

Also you will need the vitality if you do progression raiding in alexander savage, if it is designed the same way as in 2.X. Ofc if you don't do any progression raiding you don't need to go full vit.

So backwards and wrong ><. Yes VIT will have a place during the first week of alex savage but as soon as mechanics are worked out the good tanks will be putting their VIT back on their retainers. Faster kills are always better. Speed is the best form of mitigation. You also have too look at the HP loss between VIT and Hybrids. Losing even 1k HP won't matter but gaining 155 STR will.

[Taint]

So at what ilvl can you move to all stats allocation of Strength, or can you do it immediately? I'm still just starting to gear up, have all VIT accessories, and am at ilvl 165. Going to go into Bissy X Wednesday with Ravana shortly after. I guess I'm trying to figure out what the optimum HP is for those 2.

Someone mentioned a while back that they are having a hard time holding hate just in the expert dungeons also. I also read that people are tanking in sword oath. Being in sword oath is usually the reason for not holding hate for me. What are some folks doing to hold the hate, while in Sword, large groups of mobs, and justifying being in sword with the extra dps?

-WG

My first Ravana EX kill I was i148 if that helps. (before my hybrid i150s too) 12k is more then enough for either.

[Jem]

Really the biggest argument against STR builds is the same that it always has been. The players willingness to dump money into the accessories / melds.

[Taint]

Really the biggest argument against STR builds is the same that it always has been. The players willingness to dump money into the accessories / melds.

The players not willing to dump money into their gear will have the benefit of guides/videos/rotations and tome gear to aid them, still making full VIT useless.

Edit: They should have a mix of VIT/STR.

[Irvy]

Really the biggest argument against STR builds is the same that it always has been. The players willingness to dump money into the accessories / melds.

I wasn't talking about melted gear optimization but rather stuff like substituting coil VIT jewelry for coil STR jewelry (yeah sure you can do it but at this point, after completing the content, do we really care ?).

Ofc if you can splash in STR with crafted gear during progression, it is relevant optimization (and needed if you re going for world first).

Killing faster is always beneficial.

Actually that's not true on FFXIV (/point Leviathan Ex or Ifrit Ex).

Yes VIT will have a place during the first week of alex savage but as soon as mechanics are worked out the good tanks will be putting their VIT back on their retainers.

You probably wanted to say "the first few weeks", once the boss is killed and the players geared for a given tier of content you can always have fun trying to break speed kills records (or whatnot), but, at this point, it is overkill.

Also anyone not seeing the point of vitality probably didn't tank T4 (or T5) in I70 gear. While it is true that T10~T13 has been more lenient on tanks, it hasn't been the case previously.

Speed is the best form of mitigation.

Not when you're in situations where you can be one or two shotted even with CDs on (like on T4 or T5).

[LinktheDeme]

Actually that's not true on FFXIV (/point Leviathan Ex or Ifrit Ex).

Levi ex the faster you kill the less dives you have to deal with it's a much quicker pace if you skip every dive. If your DPS is high sure you'll get the wavetooth sooner but if your dps is fast enough to skip every dive then they should be fast enough to burn the wavetooth. Otherwise they're just artificially inflating dps with double dotting while being unable to perform.


Ifrit Ex really isn't a matter of killing too fast as much as it is making sure you kill the nails and not just get overzealous with afk hitting the boss and forcing an enrage.


I think a better example is T7 where you have to be in a certain "tier" of DPS where if you do it faster it's not better but if you do it THAT MUCH faster it's better. Otherwise you have to slow down for Renaud timings.




All in all as long as you can safely mitigate all mechanics you should be fine, but what's curious is that this time around VIT and STR accessories are the same values. Before 3.0 VIT accessories gave slightly more than STR making it more beneficial to move around stat points to put into STR if you wanted and to put on a VIT accessory. This time around it's more based on the secondary stats than it is the primary.

[Taint]

I wasn't talking about melted gear optimization but rather stuff like substituting coil VIT jewelry for coil STR jewelry (yeah sure you can do it but at this point, after completing the content, do we really care ?).

Ofc if you can splash in STR with crafted gear during progression, it is relevant optimization (and needed if you re going for world first).



Actually that's not true on FFXIV (/point Leviathan Ex or Ifrit Ex).



You probably wanted to say "the first few weeks", once the boss is killed and the players geared for a given tier of content you can always have fun trying to break speed kills records (or whatnot), but, at this point, it is overkill.

Also anyone not seeing the point of vitality probably didn't tank T4 (or T5) in I70 gear. While it is true that T10~T13 has been more lenient on tanks, it hasn't been the case previously.



Not when you're in situations where you can be one or two shotted even with CDs on (like on T4 or T5).

/facepalm

Once attack patterns are etched in stone VIT will be trimmed (by good tanks) and replaced with STR.
(/point every Coil turn ever)

Extra DPS lead to more clears of every turn. Sitting with 10000 HP in Turn13 wasn't helping anyone, when 9000 was all you needed. The same will be true in Alex.

Ifrit and Levi are mid tier content and still were easier with more DPS. Skipping annoying mechanics is always a good thing, their poorly designed enrages are not good examples for stacking VIT.


Edit: T4 and T5 can be cleared in i55 gear, the reason a lot of people didn't clear until ~i80 was because the game was new.

[Seravi Edalborez]

Ifrit and Levi are mid tier content and still were easier with more DPS. Skipping annoying mechanics is always a good thing, their poorly designed enrages are not good examples for stacking VIT.

Not to mention, trying to cite 2 outdates cases as examples of why not to stack STR in EVERY encounter is pretty much the definition of "an exception, not a rule"

[Detzu]

It's simple, if you don't need the extra VIT, why wouldn't you replace it with STR? You will have the same defense, your healers will do the same job and you'll be able to have more control on hate and to do more DPS.
No question, extra VIT is useless after the first time you see a mechanic on any fight.
Btw, the longer the fight the more you have to deal with damaging mechanics.

[Kiarax]

I've just left all my stats in STR although admittedly I've not finished levelling (I had to do BRD first). Our solo tank for Rav Ex was like i165 or something and did just fine.

Holding hate with Sword Oath seems to be entirely dependent on how dickish DPS are. Any DPS who fully unloads at fight starts without popping an enmity reduction ability is likely going to tear hate (may need crit procs). Outside of that it seemed fine.

It's worth mentioning that now PLD has better DPS combos that don't generate additional enmity toeing the line in Sword Oath is going to be something you actually have to think about a little bit more. DPS wouldn't even come close to Sword Oath PLD before because you were simply spamming your enmity combo anyway, now you have to try cut out as many Rage of Halone combos as possible whilst still keeping hate, which is far from difficult but the "better" you get at it the closer DPS are going to be to taking hate off you. DRK is the exact same way with your enmity combo being your worst source of damage, as I got more and more comfortable with it and saw my DPS numbers go up the amount of enmity I actually had over the DPS was getting smaller and smaller. Worst case you just throw out a bunch of Halone combos in a row if you don't feel like you're comfortably ahead though, so it's easily worked around.

[Gustave]

It's worth mentioning that now PLD has better DPS combos that don't generate additional enmity toeing the line in Sword Oath is going to be something you actually have to think about a little bit more. DPS wouldn't even come close to Sword Oath PLD before because you were simply spamming your enmity combo anyway, now you have to try cut out as many Rage of Halone combos as possible whilst still keeping hate, which is far from difficult but the "better" you get at it the closer DPS are going to be to taking hate off you. DRK is the exact same way with your enmity combo being your worst source of damage, as I got more and more comfortable with it and saw my DPS numbers go up the amount of enmity I actually had over the DPS was getting smaller and smaller. Worst case you just throw out a bunch of Halone combos in a row if you don't feel like you're comfortably ahead though, so it's easily worked around.

Between the enmity bonus on swipes and putting up str down for physical tank busters, I don't really see it being too much of a problem. Now we can tank swap and not have to roit spam, or worry about pulling hate off MT during an inopportune time.

[Obsidian]

Swipe is less potency per GCD than Goring/Royal combos average out to, so unless you're spamming Halone for whatever reason, Swipe isn't going to factor in much (on top of still generating junk for enmity).