Paladin 3.0 - Now with +1 Button

[Niiro]

The Flash x3 at the start seems excessive, when I was leveling PLD I generally just opened with a Flash and peppered more in every 2 WSs or so while spreading Goring around, changing targets as I went to check on hate levels and adjust Flash frequency accordingly.

Idk what you'd be using an AoE rotation on that would live long enough to use FoF more than once tho.

[Carth]

Flashx3 does seem excessive if you're weaving in Flash between Gorings and tab-targetting. It's definitely excessive if you have WHM Holy because who cares at that point. I've just had experience where top-tier melee DPS could rip hate on a mob pretty quick if I don't stay on top of it. It depends on the situation I guess.

Of course the goal here is to use Flash as least as possible, and applying Goring to as many mobs as possible, then switching to RA when you're down to two mobs or if all the mobs are at critical HP. You definitely won't use FoF more than once, but if you line them up correctly, your second Circle of Scorn can be squeezed in during Fight or Flight's last 5 seconds of duration.

[Seravi Edalborez]

Dumb question, Sword or Shield Oath in that AoE thing? I would assume Shield because using Flash in Sword is kind of... >_>

Typically, in old 50 land, I would just 2 Flash and kind of prioritize a "2-3-1" hate spread in a pack of 3. In that, I would make sure I hit mob 1 with a Halone, mob 2 with a Savage and Halone, mob 3 with a Savage. So usually ended up like

Flash (facepull)
Flash (positioning good by now)
Fast (doesn't matter which)
Savage 2
Halone 1
Fast
Savage 3
Halone 2
play by ear

If there's bigdick AoE then Flash on the spot since it's not like it interrupts combo. Though I understand that throwing out Goring in there is not really the same (and after 2-3 ticks, Goring is beating Halone for damage anyways).

[Niiro]

Goring beats Halone after only one tic.

People tend to forget Riot is 230 potency.

[Seravi Edalborez]

Ah right. I knew there was a reason I spammed Goring after I learned it.

[Carth]

The AoE rotation is with Shield Oath. I want to work in Sword Oath at some point but can't figure out when without it being a waste.

Should only be using Halone if there's some dumb DPS doing single target on a mob. Even without Goring, Royal Authority destroys RoH in damage as well, and it holds threat just fine under Shield Oath.

[Dotsudoku]

How are people faring with regard to Sword Oath on, say, Expert bosses/minibosses?

I've always been one to change stances for the individual fights, but I'm finding it almost entirely impractical without using Halone frequently, which I imagine is defeating the purpose. Quick math says it technically may still work out to be better, but if at the same time it's keeping the healer from nuking every once in a while, it's probably just a more dangerous wash.

[Carth]

How are people faring with regard to Sword Oath on, say, Expert bosses/minibosses?

I've always been one to change stances for the individual fights, but I'm finding it almost entirely impractical without using Halone frequently, which I imagine is defeating the purpose. Quick math says it technically may still work out to be better, but if at the same time it's keeping the healer from nuking every once in a while, it's probably just a more dangerous wash.

Start out in Shield Oath and do your enmity opener with FoF/SW/CoS. With a strong enough lead you can start using Sword Oath.

The issue is (good) DPS starts out with their burst opener, which Sword Oath PLD can do nothing against without spamming RoH, but if you do your own burst enmity opener for roughly 20s-30s then the DPS' burst ends and you can go into Sword Oath comfortably.

[TheDirtyHobo]

The issue is (good) DPS starts out with their burst opener

Unless there's some lucky timing or someone goes afk, most good DPS won't have all their cooldowns up for the start of bosses in trash dungeons. The only time I consciously save cooldowns is when an upcoming boss has double-dipping or non-percentage timesink properties (Vanu in Neverreap, Educator, Oppressor)

[Carth]

So I did some minor testing comparing the Oaths, and No Oaths on a dummy.

Weapon: Antiquated Hauteclaire (2.24 Delay)
STR: 834
Crit: 583
Det: 467
Sks: 581 (2.41s GCD)

Some known facts to get out of the way before showing my results:

-A 2.24 Delay weapon means Sword Oath increases overall AA dps by approximately 60%
-Shield Oath decreases damage by approximately 20% (I got 19% in testing, which is why I say approximately)
-Sword Oath's AA damage is approximately an 100% increase from Shield Oath's AA damage (In other words, Sword Oath literally does doubled AA damage in comparison to Shield Oath).

Test: Perform an optimal dps rotation under both Oaths, and no Oath.

Rotation: FoF > Fast Blade(SW) > Riot Blade(CoS) > Goring Blade > RA Combo > RA Combo > Repeat. FoF, SW, and CoS are used immediately when available.

This rotation continued until TP was bottomed out, which was at 2:44s. Here are my results:

Sword Oath: 797.34dps
No Oath: 701.81dps
Shield Oath: 568.65dps

On the test with Sword Oath, the overall damage was 130,764 Total. 41,787 of that damage was Auto Attacks. Out of those Auto-Attacks, 15078 of that damage was from Sword Oath. The kicker to this is this means Sword Oath contributed roughly 12% of the damage dealt within that period of time. The ~13% dps increase from No Oath to Sword Oath fits with this decently.

My overall impression of this is Sword Oath actually needs a buff or get reworked. With the higher potencies in the game all around from 50 to 60, Sword Oath has lost value in comparison to the damage multiplier constants that other jobs get.

[Niiro]

That was kind of remedied by RA and Goring having such obscene potencies. In Sword Oath their damage is perfectly fine, pretty much exactly on par with DRK.

PLD's problem is what it's always been, they have no fulltime damage buff in their tank stance to compensate for the damage penalty (WAR has Maim, DRK has Darkside) and their new problem is Halone's lesser enmity modifier despite no longer being their only combo.

[Jahaudant]

But if you get a MCH or BRD to constantly feed TP and a WAR to constantly apply Storm's Eye PLD dps is only around 15%-20% less than WAR. Plus, they have the best defence in the game (just look at HG guys). Balanced IMO.

[Obsidian]

Worst of the three as far as magic damage mitigation is concerned, but let's ignore that because HEY THEY HAVE A SHIELD!

[Edelweiss]

But if you get a MCH or BRD to constantly feed TP and a WAR to constantly apply Storm's Eye PLD dps is only around 15%-20% less than WAR. Plus, they have the best defence in the game (just look at HG guys). Balanced IMO.

Worst of the three as far as magic damage mitigation is concerned, but let's ignore that because HEY THEY HAVE A SHIELD!

I FOUND YOU OUT PHOENICIA. YOUR MISTAKE WAS USING YOUR BG SOCKS BACK-TO-BACK but no really, this is what a lot of the shitters think.

Considering what needs to be adjusted or outright changed, I have little confidence PLD will recover all the appeal/usefulness it used to have prior to HW (especially since there's a third tank now, and even having a contradictory skillset and being a somewhat flawed piece of shit, it's leagues better); it's probably going to be a pariah that recieves buffs (just to bring it to relative parity) for the entirety of 3.X because this fuckin' dev team's inability to get it right on the first attempt.

Of course I say this, and totally discount the fact that their foremost idea of balance is probably to nerf WAR; it's the easiest means to "fix" the problem and prevent wasting any further development time on anything besides minions.

[Fiye]

I'm still trying to question why PLD Sword and Board haven't just been merged into a single mainhand. Then Squeenix can give all the mages their silly wands with included shields.

On that note, if square enix actually does nerf warrior. The amount of hatred and loathing that'll get bred makes me tingle. Especially with the lack of A4S clears.

[Jahaudant]

if square enix actually does nerf warrior

I remain mostly confident this won't happen (for a while at least) based on how Yoshi responded to one of the questions about WAR in the last live letter. IIRC he effectively said WAR is meant to do higher DPS for a trade-off in survivability.

Actually, now that I just typed that out again... he could have been subtly hinting at an upcoming defensive nerf to WAR. Oh god.

Spoiler: show

Not that his Q&A answers have historically ever meant anything....

[Taint]

But if you get a MCH or BRD to constantly feed TP and a WAR to constantly apply Storm's Eye PLD dps is only around 15%-20% less than WAR. Plus, they have the best defence in the game (just look at HG guys). Balanced IMO.

That's a lot of IFs to be 15-20% behind.

And higher defense against physical attacks (barely) when the current design is around magic attacks.

Also HG is such a tired argument. Yeah those 10 seconds are badass, but WAR being able to use Holmgang more then twice as often proves to be more effective now with their Equilibrium+2ndwind+IB self healing.

[Shalafi]

But Clemency....lol

[Taint]

But Clemency....lol

If Clemency restored 200tp while cast in SwO it might actually be useful. But, that would break the equilibrium.,

[The Stig]

If Clemency restored 200tp while cast in SwO it might actually be useful. But, that would break the equilibrium.,

Does it count that it restores about 140tp? That 3 second cast is quite long ... lol