Paladin 3.0 - Now with +1 Button

[Edelweiss]

That's a lot of IFs to be 15-20% behind.

And higher defense against physical attacks (barely) when the current design is around magic attacks.

Also HG is such a tired argument. Yeah those 10 seconds are badass, but WAR being able to use Holmgang more then twice as often proves to be more effective now with their Equilibrium+2ndwind+IB self healing.

Hallowed Ground is essentially limited to a single use per fight too (unless i'm just really bad at mitigation rotations for AS3 and AS4 has some big curveballs that i've yet to see). In the past, i'm pretty sure it could have been conceiveably used twice in virtually every Coil encounter. And on top of easily having mitigation up for anything to be concerned about 100% of the time (at least IB, maybe other stuff or even just eating it with Holmgang and healing after) WAR is also just so amazingly smooth to play. Coming from PLD, it's just so incredible to be able to swap between Defiance and Deliverance without breaking my fucking combos/losing a GCD (and possibly losing hate). The only thing PLD has that even approaches it is just cancelling Shield Oath. lol It doesn't even consume MP or fuck my stacks of Abandon or Wrath. Everything flows together so well that just playing the job properly (read: aggressively) actually feels pretty natural.

Now that I say that, I really wonder how the fuck the dev team actually released PLD as is. This sounds like the two are an oceans apart in design and function. We probably should not have been surprised that PLD was going to be such garbage.

[Taint]

Does it count that it restores about 140tp? That 3 second cast is quite long ... lol

lol well played.

Unfortunately you are probably on the money with SEs thinking. "PLDs will be casting to much and shield swiping their TP will last forever!"

[Taint]

And on top of easily having mitigation up for anything to be concerned about 100% of the time (at least IB, maybe other stuff or even just eating it with Holmgang and healing after) WAR is also just so amazingly smooth to play. Coming from PLD, it's just so incredible to be able to swap between Defiance and Deliverance without breaking my fucking combos/losing a GCD (and possibly losing hate). The only thing PLD has that even approaches it is just cancelling Shield Oath. lol It doesn't even consume MP or fuck my stacks of Abandon or Wrath. Everything flows together so well that just playing the job properly actually feels pretty natural.

Now that I say that, I really wonder how the fuck the dev team actually released PLD as is. This sounds like an oceans apart kind of design and function. We probably should not have been surprised that PLD was going to be such garbage.

^ This x1000

WAR plays so well now. SE nailed it with WAR, its incredibly fluid to play, has incredible raid utility and can mitigate damage on the fly with short CDs. Your post has made me depressed for swearing by the oath and spending my tomes on PLD ><

[Edelweiss]

^ This x1000

WAR plays so well now. SE nailed it with WAR, its incredibly fluid to play, has incredible raid utility and can mitigate damage on the fly with short CDs. Your post has made me depressed for swearing by the oath and spending my tomes on PLD ><

If it makes you feel better, I fucking did too. I don't even know why I did (it's just holding us back on clearing A3S..).

[Taint]

If it makes you feel better, I fucking did too. I don't even know why I did (it's just holding us back on clearing A3S..).

I used to PLD everything, I loved it, I would gear up other classes and never play them, I was a PLD junkie. Now I WAR everything and play PLD for raid nights only.

It still plays better then DRK at least. DRK is a very good job on paper but damn is it clunky to play.

[Edelweiss]

I used to PLD everything, I loved it, I would gear up other classes and never play them, I was a PLD junkie. Now I WAR everything and play PLD for raid nights only.

It still plays better then DRK at least. DRK is a very good job on paper but damn is it clunky to play.

At least I got my Parashu last week, so my lapse in judgement was only momentary.

As for DRK some of it's toolkit is just fucking dumb and outright contradictory if Dark Arts gets involved (Blind -and- Evasion +20%, when getting hit is what makes Blood Price useful.. wat). It's also clunky, I agree: Reprisal is especially dumb and annoying at times if you don't have multiple mobs (plus Grit needing to be toggled on and off to use Blood Weapon, etc.). At least it's future looks brighter than PLD's at the moment for obvious reasons; their TP problems and contradictory toolkit shouldn't be very difficult to fix to be not stupid anymore (same for said clunkiness @ Reprisal and the like). If the devs buckle and make Dancing Edge not a DPS loss for NIN, DRK would be in a really nice position. PLD would benefit too, but, lolPLD (crying inside).

[Jahaudant]

Taint, if you didn't realise, I was being heavily sarcastic. I don't think anyone here needs to be told how bad of a state PLD is in right now.

[Edelweiss]

Taint, if you didn't realise, I was being heavily sarcastic. I don't think anyone here needs to be told how bad of a state PLD is in right now.

Re-read what he said. lol I certainly caught it.

[Taim Meich]

PLD's problem is what it's always been, they have no fulltime damage buff in their tank stance to compensate for the damage penalty (WAR has Maim, DRK has Darkside) and their new problem is Halone's lesser enmity modifier despite no longer being their only combo.

I've read this argument many times, but it isn't a good argument at all. If Maim and Darkside only could be applied on the tanking stance, sure, then those buffs would effectively compensate the damage penalty. But it is not the case: both buffs can (and should) be maintained permanently, meaning that the baseline damage for WAR and DRK includes the buff, and switching from DPS to tanking stances does indeed apply a damage nerf, since we have to compare the damage in both stances.

So, summing up, WAR's base damage is 120%, in Deliverance it's 126% (120*1.05) and in Defiance it's 90% (120*0.75), and the same with DRK with their own abilities.

[Taint]

I've read this argument many times, but it isn't a good argument at all. If Maim and Darkside only could be applied on the tanking stance, sure, then those buffs would effectively compensate the damage penalty. But it is not the case: both buffs can (and should) be maintained permanently, meaning that the baseline damage for WAR and DRK includes the buff, and switching from DPS to tanking stances does indeed apply a damage nerf, since we have to compare the damage in both stances.

So, summing up, WAR's base damage is 120%, in Deliverance it's 126% (120*1.05) and in Defiance it's 90% (120*0.75), and the same with DRK with their own abilities.

That's a different way of saying the same thing. Either DRK/WAR don't loss as much or PLD losses more.

PLD gets the penalty plus losses the 50 pot addition of SwO. WAR/DRK just get the penalty since maim/DS are already factored in.

[Taim Meich]

That's a different way of saying the same thing. Either DRK/WAR don't loss as much or PLD losses more.

PLD gets the penalty plus losses the 50 pot addition of SwO. WAR/DRK just get the penalty since maim/DS are already factored in.

Of course, I'm not saying this to imply PLD has any kind of advantage. Just pointing it out that, the way people usually present this argument, looks like they're implying that WAR goes from 105% damage on deliverance to 90% damage on Defiance (and the equivalent for DRK). In theory, Maim is there to "compensate" for the low potency of WAR's combos, and the Goring and Royal Authority combos on PLD was a nice attempt to boost PLD's DPS going in that same direction (that is, raw potency instead of multiple buffs). In practice, of course, PLD can't use those combos as much as they would want, because of the loss of enmity.

Maybe a nice boost on the enmity of the Halone combo will really help PLD. And I mean, not only to RoH itself, but to Savage Blade to, so the Royal Authority combo helps to sustain enmity even more.

[Carth]

That was kind of remedied by RA and Goring having such obscene potencies. In Sword Oath their damage is perfectly fine, pretty much exactly on par with DRK.

PLD's problem is what it's always been, they have no fulltime damage buff in their tank stance to compensate for the damage penalty (WAR has Maim, DRK has Darkside) and their new problem is Halone's lesser enmity modifier despite no longer being their only combo.

Is it on par with DRK? I honestly don't know. Between CnS, Salted Earth, Scourge, DA'd Soul Eater Combo, and Blood Weapon, I would imagine DRK would be above PLD in their non-tank stances as long as they had someone minimizing their TP issues.

Now that I say that, I really wonder how the fuck the dev team actually released PLD as is. This sounds like the two are an oceans apart in design and function. We probably should not have been surprised that PLD was going to be such garbage.

I wasn't surprised because I called it as soon as I saw DRK's abilities before the expansion hit. If anything, I'm surprised about how right I was.

DRK definitely needs some QoL changes for me to enjoy it. I was kind of enjoying it at level 50, but now with the extra button mashing you have to do, I'm pretty lukewarm on DRK. It's great as you say, but it has terrible flow and that is mainly attributed to how Dark Arts works.

Also going to echo that Hallowed Ground is a tired argument. Yes, it's the most overpowered mitigation tool in the game, but it's on a 300s cooldown. This means you're only using this once in a fight. For the rest of that time, PLD is on par if not outright worse than WAR or DRK in any tanking situation that doesn't have physical tank busters, and on top of that it under-performs in both DPS and utility. PLD working well in raid content really depends on the fight being tuned to favor their tools.

An example of this is during A2(Normal). During the last phase when the "south" tank grabs dolls and Hardhelm. The damage spike is so massive that tanks can drop in mere seconds. Hallowed Ground to Sentinel to Rampart/Bulwark makes this a cakewalk while DRK/WAR are bleeding all over the place (Yes, I realize this is not the way you're supposed to handle this phase, but both DF and my casual FC parties just herp derp this and force me to grab everything).

Actually, let me amend my previous statement. PLD is only useful for Hallowed Ground. Think about that.

[Jem]

Actually, let me amend my previous statement. PLD is only useful for Hallowed Ground. Think about that.

Hey that's not true! We have cover for errr something!

[Niiro]

My PLD/WAR/DRK all have the exact same gear and law weapons and on a test dummy I parse almost exactly the same with PLD in Sword and DRK out of Grit (in the 2-3 minutes before they both run out of TP).

WAR is always ahead of both because, this being on a test dummy solo, it's the only job getting slashing debuff (and also because WAR is WAR and Berserk+FC, etc).

[Shalafi]

Hey that's not true! We have cover for errr something!

Earth Shakers

[Edelweiss]

Earth Shakers

That isn't Hydrothermal Missile-chan. But really, Cover on Earth Shakers was a neat way to preserve DPS (if they were bad at doing the dance anyway). I actually kind of miss Final Coil (and Second Coil, sans old Turn 7).

[Kiarax]

In my experience PLD definitely falls behind DRK, it's very noticable when you're actually tanking and getting Reprisal and Low Blow procs. I can maintain 1000 DPS on DRK pre-split in A1S and I know for sure given the same gear upgrades (Eso wep and body) I wouldn't be able to do the same on PLD. Admittedly you can't always afford to MT with your DPS stance, so the difference is going to be more marginal if you're comparing OT situations when looking at DPS (where DRK doesn't get significantly more MP generation on top of the Reprisal and Low Blow procs), but I think it is common enough in a decent group to definitely be worth mentioning. I tank the most important part of A1S (as far as DPS is concerned) entirely without Grit, a lot of A2S without Grit and some of A3S without it. Anything outside of Savage you're always going to be using DPS stances (unless DF gives you an exceptionally bad healer).

[Carth]

My PLD/WAR/DRK all have the exact same gear and law weapons and on a test dummy I parse almost exactly the same with PLD in Sword and DRK out of Grit (in the 2-3 minutes before they both run out of TP).

WAR is always ahead of both because, this being on a test dummy solo, it's the only job getting slashing debuff (and also because WAR is WAR and Berserk+FC, etc).

Taking your word for it. In that case, I'll agree with you (though their AoE damage is complete shit but we'll let that go for now).

For cases like these, I try to take into account of SE's design philosophy instead of going willy-nilly with change suggestions. It's obviously intentional for PLD's damage to be shit while in Shield Oath in comparison to the other tanks, so I would still suggest to buff Sword Oath so stance dancing is more valuable to minimize that DPS loss.

[Niiro]

In my experience PLD definitely falls behind DRK, it's very noticable when you're actually tanking and getting Reprisal and Low Blow procs. I can maintain 1000 DPS on DRK pre-split in A1S and I know for sure given the same gear upgrades (Eso wep and body) I wouldn't be able to do the same on PLD. Admittedly you can't always afford to MT with your DPS stance, so the difference is going to be more marginal if you're comparing OT situations when looking at DPS (where DRK doesn't get significantly more MP generation on top of the Reprisal and Low Blow procs), but I think it is common enough in a decent group to definitely be worth mentioning. I tank the most important part of A1S (as far as DPS is concerned) entirely without Grit, a lot of A2S without Grit and some of A3S without it. Anything outside of Savage you're always going to be using DPS stances (unless DF gives you an exceptionally bad healer).

When you mention Low Blow and Reprisal procs it's almost like making Shield Swipe off the GCD would be a good idea, I wonder why no one's suggested that before.

[Edelweiss]

Taking your word for it. In that case, I'll agree with you (though their AoE damage is complete shit but we'll let that go for now).

For cases like these, I try to take into account of SE's design philosophy instead of going willy-nilly with change suggestions. It's obviously intentional for PLD's damage to be shit while in Shield Oath in comparison to the other tanks, so I would still suggest to buff Sword Oath so stance dancing is more valuable to minimize that DPS loss.

Are you accounting for the Oath swap itself being a DPS loss?