Paladin 3.0 - Now with +1 Button

[Lucavi]

Buff the shit out of scorn and turn it into a real AOE threat, and lower the cooldown. Pld needs more damaging ways to maintain AOE threat and pressure.

[Niiro]

Making the enmity modifier on CoS apply to the DoT as well instead of just the initial hit would be nice, why they even made it like that in the first place is beyond me.

Up the mod from x3 to x5 while you're at it.

It's currently 450 total enmity-potency, with those changes it would be 1250.

[Obsidian]

That's a different way of saying the same thing. Either DRK/WAR don't loss as much or PLD losses more.

PLD gets the penalty plus losses the 50 pot addition of SwO. WAR/DRK just get the penalty since maim/DS are already factored in.

WAR loses the crit bonus from Deliverance and I don't know what DRK loses but I'm sure it's something. The problem isn't that PLD loses more in its tanking stance, it's that the gap between PLD's damage and WAR/DRK's damage is too wide to begin with.

Taking your word for it. In that case, I'll agree with you (though their AoE damage is complete shit but we'll let that go for now).

For cases like these, I try to take into account of SE's design philosophy instead of going willy-nilly with change suggestions. It's obviously intentional for PLD's damage to be shit while in Shield Oath in comparison to the other tanks, so I would still suggest to buff Sword Oath so stance dancing is more valuable to minimize that DPS loss.

Related to the above, I think it's pretty fair to say that the intention is for PLD to be the single-target physical damage tank (because what on Earth could it possibly be otherwise?), but SE is so afraid of making PLD obviously better at that than the other two that they're completely fucking it over in that respect and not compensating by making it better in other areas (like AoE damage/threat). PLD should be the tank that doesn't rely on cooldowns to survive tank busters, and instead uses them for emergencies or insurance. The stay-at-home tank that doesn't do a ton of damage but doesn't require a lot of babysitting either.

Instead we have the tank that does the least damage, generates the least threat, has the tightest timings for cooldowns on tank busters, for all intents and purposes cannot heal itself, can't restore its own TP, can barely restore its own MP, is the least effective at dealing with crowds, provides arguably the least support to a party, and is arguably the most disjointed of the three from a mechanical standpoint. It's the only tank with its stances on the GCD, it's the only one whose every non-combo GCD (except Shield Swipe) breaks its combos, it's the only one whose Stun is on the GCD (and costs an absurd amount of TP), it's the only one whose (pathetic) self-heal can be interrupted (and also has both an exorbitant cost and a DPS loss associated with its use), and every single ability in its repertoire you can point at and say WAR or DRK has a better version of.

Some of you seem surprised and are acting like no one could have predicted the position PLD now finds itself, and I'm not trying to brag but you can look through my post history in the tank threads and see that I did, well before a third tank class was ever announced. From the moment they detailed the WAR changes for 2.1 it should have been obvious to everyone that PLD was the worse tank by a wide margin and needed work. Even before they announced WAR changes, PLD having a single combo should have clued people in. Now the problem is just exacerbated by not having to double up on WARs if you don't want to. PLD's threat generation has always been worse than WAR's. Its multi-target capability has always been worse than WAR's. Its damage dealing and self-healing has always been worse, and from 2.1 onward its damage mitigation has not been significantly (or in cases of magic damage, not even theoretically) better. This should have surprised no one.

[Kiarax]

DRK loses the ability to use Blood Weapon, 10% haste and a lot of MP recovery. The MP recovery also translates in to a significant amount of extra DPS. WAR loses the ~10% crit from Deliverance as well as the 5% damage bonus on the stance itself. Comparing them like that PLD probably does have the biggest loss of the three (though it's probably fairly minor), but I'd say factoring in Fell Cleave and Decimate as part of WARs DPS stance (since you obviously can't use them in Defiance) probably puts them equal or WAR at the biggest loss.

[Taim Meich]

Nitpicking, WAR doesn't really have nearly close to an extra 10% crit on Deliverance, as that only happens at 5 wrath stacks. Some quick math says it's actually a little lower than 5%. Not a terrible loss or gain anyway.

[Kiarax]

Yeah, the ~10% was to indicate it's a little less! It's hard to really put in to numbers exactly how much it benefits you because it depends if you're ever holding stacks, at the very least you always have the 10% on your Fell Cleaves which is a decent chunk of where your damage is actually at, so even though it wont buff your overall crit rate by 10% it is always that high on the hits that count the most!

[MrSamuels]

My main concern is who the fuck is testing these things, who thought that Paladin actually seemed to be in a good spot this expansion and let it roll how it is, because really they have no clue. Their testing structure for this game is ridiculous and they need to PTR shit up and stop being so "Square Enix" about this game. The type of people who go to a PTR don't go for story spoilers, they go for class changes and to help make adjustments happen. For a person who idolises WoW and how they work, Yoshi P sure is in the dark ages about certain shit when it comes to running an MMO.

I will not be surprised if the only change that comes into effect for Paladin in 3.1 will be enmity modifiers. In reality they need to change so much that for it to happen in a content patch is probably never going to happen. Unlike 2.0 Warrior people are actually using Paladin, yeah not for world first but they don't give a flying fuck about them groups anyways, in reality Paladin problems are on the same scale as 2.0 Warrior if not worse. The thread says the class is dead check back at 3.1. I will tin foil hat and say check back in 4.0 cause i can't see this cluster fuck of shit changing all that much.

[Edelweiss]

My main concern is who the fuck is testing these things, who thought that Paladin actually seemed to be in a good spot this expansion and let it roll how it is, because really they have no clue.

It sure as shit isn't someone who frequents BG/has any idea of what a good tank job looks like. They really should have caught how woefully inadequate AST, BRD, MCH, and PLD were at release before HW was even playable publicly. I suppose it might be no coincidence that the jobs with deep-seated issues that go beyond mere formula adjustments, and into fundamental problems with the way they function/flow, are in a really bad spot right now.

I will not be surprised if the only change that comes into effect for Paladin in 3.1 will be enmity modifiers. In reality they need to change so much that for it to happen in a content patch is probably never going to happen. Unlike 2.0 Warrior people are actually using Paladin, yeah not for world first but they don't give a flying fuck about them groups anyways, in reality Paladin problems are on the same scale as 2.0 Warrior if not worse. The thread says the class is dead check back at 3.1. I will tin foil hat and say check back in 4.0 cause i can't see this cluster fuck of shit changing all that much.

You're not alone in thinking PLD is pretty much going to be a pariah among any serious players for all of 3.X; there's just so many fucking fundamental issues with the job that I just cannot see this dev team actually remedying them within the 3.X series. They'll probably just say fuck it after 3.1 and punt on major job adjustments until 4.X. Well, at least WAR is very fun and well designed. And DRK could potentially be just as fun and well designed if they make some adjustments to Grit locking some stuff out/change effects under Dark Arts/making Reprisal less stupid at times (also remedying their TP problem.. which somehow they managed to do again after PLD).

Of course I guess maybe they could surprise us and actually rework PLD (AST and BRD too, for that matter) properly within the next two major patch intervals. Their past body of work though, suggests that isn't fucking happening.

[Niiro]

Comparing PLD to 2.0 WAR is more than a bit of hyperbole....

[Carth]

I would only fully expect enmity modifier changes in 3.1 to fix our threat issues (which are practically non-existent in Shield Oath but extremely prevalent in Sword Oath). Anything beyond that I have no hope for.

SE has made it a point in saying they're avoiding design changes, specifically highlighting the fact that classes are 100% irrelevant once Jobs come into play, which is why the HW Jobs do not come with them. Instead of changing the design they would instead avoid the issue entirely. PLD's problems aren't mechanics entirely, but rather design. Over half of it's utility is useless due to how cumbersome it is (Clemency, Shield Swipe, Shield Bash, Oaths breaking combos via GCD, SW's Silence being on a high potency attack), or it being unusable entirely (Anything involving shield vs magic enemies, Stun locking, Pacification). These issues aren't just mechanics, they're also design choices. The fact they refuse to change Bard's design post-50 only highlights this.

Comparing PLD to 2.0 WAR is more than a bit of hyperbole....

Also this. PLD is in a rut but it's nowhere near how terrible WAR was during 2.0. WAR literally couldn't function in Coil as a tank. Despite how bad PLD is, it still functions fine as a tank, and that's the biggest hurdle in prompting SE to make any large scale changes to PLD.

[TheDirtyHobo]

I really disagree that the design is inherently (completely) broken; it's just devalued in the current environment. I think enmity generation should be a struggle (but still possible) in Sword, otherwise it completely negates the purpose of getting the bonus from Shield. Flash and CoS enmity modifiers could use a buff, if only to compete with the resourceless AoE monster that is BLM in A2S, but I don't think combos require it. Oaths need to be off the GCD or at least not interrupt combos, but everyone knows this already. There are times when Shield Bash being a GCD, and thus spammable, was a positive aspect over other jobs having shorter duration, longer cooldown stuns ('sup dreadknights).

The problem with the job system is that they decided to take it in two separate, incompatible directions. They made the idea of removing classes and only going for jobs a huge pain by adding SCH to the ACN class, but then ignored the class (and cross-class) system when implementing the new jobs. The problem is it's eventually something they have to deal with, but they're only making it more difficult by continuing to ignore it and producing more things that will have to be changed when they finally get around to it.

[Despain]

I've always found it mind boggling that PLD gets shafted when it comes to AoE. You can only do so much with CoS/Flash.

[Lucavi]

Comparing PLD to 2.0 WAR is more than a bit of hyperbole....

Agreed. Rotoswipe a 2.0 War, then come back and talk to me.

God, those days.

[Dr. Pavel]

I don't think PLD needs such massive fixes to be viable in Savage. It probably requires big fixes to flow in a coherent way like WAR does though. The oddest thing is that when the skill list got datamined shortly before launch PLD was looking like it'd be in a pretty good place, Royal Authority and Goring Blade are pretty good and Divine Veil is a nice skill. The main problems seem to come from the fact that PLD didn't gain enough DPS and that Sheltron, which would've been an amazing skill in previous raid tiers, feels completely out of place in the magic-heavy environment of Savage Alexander. Clemency is a mess of a skill through, its flavorful and makes sense for Paladin, but its far too slow to be useful and would've probably worked better as a more spammable, faster, weaker heal, say, 1414 MP cost, 2 seconds cast, 800 potency.

[Eludi]

Personally I prefer Pld in a3s compared to drk, sure drk does more damage overall but good pld pulls respectable numbers, and considering how much physical damage that fight has I feel that pld is in good spot for that fight, allowing healers to do a little bit more and overall being pretty safe option

[Edelweiss]

I don't think PLD needs such massive fixes to be viable in Savage. It probably requires big fixes to flow in a coherent way like WAR does though. The oddest thing is that when the skill list got datamined shortly before launch PLD was looking like it'd be in a pretty good place, Royal Authority and Goring Blade are pretty good and Divine Veil is a nice skill. The main problems seem to come from the fact that PLD didn't gain enough DPS and that Sheltron, which would've been an amazing skill in previous raid tiers, feels completely out of place in the magic-heavy environment of Savage Alexander. Clemency is a mess of a skill through, its flavorful and makes sense for Paladin, but its far too slow to be useful and would've probably worked better as a more spammable, faster, weaker heal, say, 1414 MP cost, 2 seconds cast, 800 potency.

If spellcasting will continue to break combos for PLD, Clemency would be better off as a Regen or Medica II-type spell.

[Niiro]

Oh my god that would be so nice for picking up adds, haha.

Kind of sad that it would be a more useful hate tool than mitigation tool but still.

[Edelweiss]

Oh my god that would be so nice for picking up adds, haha.

Kind of sad that it would be a more useful hate tool than mitigation tool but still.

That's pretty much why I suggested it. Of course, if PLD were no longer punished for even attempting to cast (nevermind completing a cast) by having any combos broken, then it'd probably be debatable as to which is better (direct heal vs. HoT vs. AoE HoT).

[Taint]

If spellcasting will continue to break combos for PLD, Clemency would be better off as a Regen or Medica II-type spell.

That's a really good idea. Make clemency a strong regen. (instant cast) Now it will be useful as an MT and as an OT.

[Carth]

I can get behind a regen. Even if it wasn't instant cast, it'd be infinitely more useful than what Clemency is now.