Paladin 3.0 - Now with +1 Button

[Niiro]

Spinning Slash and Power Slash have more potency than the PLD and WAR equivalents, DRK does not have it bad at all.

[Dotsudoku]

DRK actually has it worse than PLD, but the higher base enmity modifier and the ability to Dark Arts it for an even higher modifier kinda makes up for it. But the enmity combo is by far the weakest on DRK and PLD actually uses Savage Blade in it's DPS combo that it spams, whereas DRK actively avoids it as much as possible. I don't think PLD has any issues at all holding hate in Sword Oath, WAR has it super easy with their enmity combo being used for DPS, but both PLD and DRK are in the same boat and PLD gives up a lot less to do so. I think PLD is in a pretty bad spot right now but enmity isn't a problem in the slightest and it just seems really petty that people are torn up about the fact that they actually have to find a balance between building enmity and damage now, it's made tanking a lot more interesting to me and it doesn't bother me at all that WAR has it brainless in comparison.

Holding hate against what in Sword Oath? DPS creep up on me in Sword while exclusively using Halone

[Lucavi]

it doesn't bother me at all that WAR has it brainless in comparison.

War's brains needed a break from all the gymnastics routines they performed trying to figure out how to stay alive in Coil 1 in 2.0. prebuffs. Oh, hello double dreads. Hi there, holy trinity of death.

There's a million solutions, but if SE lowballs it and takes the enimity buff solo route, I'll be disappointed.

[Taint]

DRK actually has it worse than PLD, but the higher base enmity modifier and the ability to Dark Arts it for an even higher modifier kinda makes up for it. But the enmity combo is by far the weakest on DRK and PLD actually uses Savage Blade in it's DPS combo that it spams, whereas DRK actively avoids it as much as possible. I don't think PLD has any issues at all holding hate in Sword Oath, WAR has it super easy with their enmity combo being used for DPS, but both PLD and DRK are in the same boat and PLD gives up a lot less to do so. I think PLD is in a pretty bad spot right now but enmity isn't a problem in the slightest and it just seems really petty that people are torn up about the fact that they actually have to find a balance between building enmity and damage now, it's made tanking a lot more interesting to me and it doesn't bother me at all that WAR has it brainless in comparison.

Wat did I just read....PLD enmity is the root of its problems.

DRK has 5 oGCDs to buff its hate and going from delirium to Power slash is a 10 potency loss. (530vs520) Power slash emnity is 1650 pot or 1950 with dark arts plus the 770 from spinning.

Halone is 1300 plus 600 from Savage. Royal authority is 340 plus the 600 from Savage. PLDs also lose 80 potency using Halone instead of Royal.

[Kiarax]

Spinning Slash and Power Slash have more potency than the PLD and WAR equivalents, DRK does not have it bad at all.

And you don't use either of them when you're pushing damage. PLD uses Savage Blade every Royal Authority combo. You're literally spamming an essentially 600 potency (of enmity at least) WS throughout the entire fight. DRK absolutely does not have it better. On top of that, PLD gives up much less to actually drop a Rage of Halone (using it instead of Royal Authority is a loss of 80 potency), DRK potentially loses 130 potency or on the rare occasion you don't have the MP for Souleater (if you're tanking without Grit this is very rarely the case) you lose the MP recovery from Syphon Strike, which is half of a DA Souleater (essentially 65 potency lost). It's not particularly worth mentioning but Halone also applies 10% STR down, which is a huge chunk of mitigation in anywhere that isn't A4, DRK doesn't get any side benefit to using Power Slash.

Holding hate against what in Sword Oath? DPS creep up on me in Sword while exclusively using Halone

Are you sure that's not just a gap in gear? I've run plenty of shit on PLD with the exact same DPS I run Savage with on my DRK and it's never been an issue, if I don't have a NIN I open with Shield Oath for 1 or 2 Halones and then drop back to Sword and more than likely never have to Halone again. I'm not trying to imply DRK somehow has it "hard" here either but I think it's just as easy to keep hate on PLD as it is DRK.

[Niiro]

Your complaint is that DRK's damage combo is so damaging that even though their enmity combo is much stronger than PLD's they somehow still suffer more for using it.

...........I don't think you're seeing the issue here.

[Kiarax]

I mean, I've agreed in every post that I think PLD is in a bad spot currently, I'm literally talking about enmity generation here and how it's apparently such a huge problem now when I completely disagree. Yeah, the class is significantly weaker than WAR and yeah its a bit weaker than DRK too, but enmity generation is the least of the classes concern imo and it seems to be the number one complaint just about everywhere for whatever reason. I just don't really see why it's such a huge problem to people and it seems like everyone just wants enmity management to not even exist period, which is fucking silly to me. I'm not stupid enough to assume everyone finds precisely the same things I do "fun" but I sure as fuck don't want to go back to sitting there mindlessly mashing my DPS rotation and pretending enmity doesn't even exist, finding the balance between optimizing your damage, enmity and mitigation is what keeps tanking interesting, I'd like to see them make it more fluid/interesting (IE oaths off the GCD, doing fucking anything with shield swipe or clemency), not just make it mindless like it was before.

[Obsidian]

I'm not sure how you can disagree that PLD's enmity generation is easily the weakest of the three tanks when it has the lowest enmity modifier and potency on its threat combo. People want this addressed because without changing it, you can't use Sword Oath around DPS who can think for themselves, and without Sword Oath you're not even in the same area code as WAR or DRK damage, which makes you completely useless.

[Edelweiss]

I mean, I've agreed in every post that I think PLD is in a bad spot currently, I'm literally talking about enmity generation here and how it's apparently such a huge problem now when I completely disagree. Yeah, the class is significantly weaker than WAR and yeah its a bit weaker than DRK too, but enmity generation is the least of the classes concern imo and it seems to be the number one complaint just about everywhere for whatever reason. I just don't really see why it's such a huge problem to people and it seems like everyone just wants enmity management to not even exist period, which is fucking silly to me. I'm not stupid enough to assume everyone finds precisely the same things I do "fun" but I sure as fuck don't want to go back to sitting there mindlessly mashing my DPS rotation and pretending enmity doesn't even exist, finding the balance between optimizing your damage, enmity and mitigation is what keeps tanking interesting, I'd like to see them make it more fluid/interesting (IE oaths off the GCD, doing fucking anything with shield swipe or clemency), not just make it mindless like it was before.

So then this is basically saying PLD should struggle with enmity. Would we nerf WAR and DRK's modifiers down to PLD's present mods then?

[Kiarax]

I'm saying I don't think it currently does struggle. Maybe I'm surrounded by shitty DPS or something, I've done all of alex normal and some A2S on PLD and enmity was never an issue when I did (and I can't really hope to compare now because I don't have PLD eso gear). Savage shouldn't be any different unless you're overcompensating on VIT or not using STR potions when all your DPS might be. Comparing it to WAR and DRK enmity generation just feels a little superfluous to me because the amount of enmity WAR generates is completely unnecessary, you could knock 33% off it and they still wouldn't lose hate. DRK seriously toes the line along side PLD and I think that's okay. And yes I actually do want to see WAR not have their enmity modifier on their highest DPS combo, it's dumb and I'd be fine with them making it 5x to boot.

[Jem]

Do you take a NIN? Because that would explain a lot.

We do not take a NIN and in order to keep hate off our DPS I have to open in Shield Oath > build a lead > switch over to Sword Oath and watch DPS gain on me all fight. And that's even though I use STR meld accessories. If I open in Sword Oath, I can spam Halone and it's borderline as to whether it's enough.

The problem is hidden in some fights by DPS breaking off for adds or heavy dodging or the tank having to use Shield Oath.

[Kiarax]

I open with Shield Oath for one or two Halones if I don't have a NIN there to be safe (pretty sure I'd do the same on DRK though, my opener in raid is doing one Dark Arts Power Slash combo and even then DPS will be right on me after 2 Souleater combos), like I said, only Savage I've done on PLD is A2S so it could just be DPS being lazy about it, but it was never a problem in content I have done on PLD.

I wanted to try and test some quick enmity parsing on equally geared PLD/DRK but I can't get this damn enmity plugin to work, can't seem to detect/read the FFXIV process even though everything else on ACT works fine. I definitely think PLD has an up on DRK when it comes to juggling baseline combos but now I'm curious if DRKs oGCDs do put it ahead or not. Can someone with it working confirm it still works? I've never tried using it so I dunno if a game update broke it or if I need to fuck around with something else. I don't expect someone else to run tests to disprove me but I'd be happy to do it myself if I can get this working because I'm genuinely curious now.

Edit: Nevermind, got it working. Will do a little testing in a bit.

[Kiarax]

Yeah as I thought, PLD is further ahead on enmity than DRK just doing DPS combos. Gear was identical for both classes barring the weapon, which is just Hive Claymore vs Hive Shamshir + Scutum, both have 35 points in STR. Spoilers for big:

Spoiler: show

PLD did 865 DPS, 134k total damage and generated 163k enmity.
DRK did 907 DPS, 140k total damage and generated 147k enmity.

PLD is a little over 10% ahead in enmity, despite doing a bit less DPS. DRK would be a bit closer in a real fight due to Reprisal/Low Blow procs and extra MP from Blood Price (have to do far more Deliriums than I would in a real fight, which is on average around 600 less damage/enmity per use), but I'm 100% certain it's still less than PLD and I'm not about to go and slam my head against something silly repeatedly just to prove it any more than this. DRKs slightly better enmity modifier/potency on Power Slash will help close the gap a little more but without doing a ridiculous amount of tests in real fights (which isn't happening) I'm still pretty comfortable standing by my comment that PLD has it easier than DRK, but they're so close it's not even worth mentioning honestly. And just to preempt people putting words in my mouth I'll reiterate, I absolutely agree PLD is in a pretty meh spot right now and it needs some adjustments to a number of things like TP usage/recovery, stance dancing (DRK could see the same adjustments but its not nearly as unwieldy on DRK imo), some nicer raid utility (although DRK is as lacking if not more here too if you happen to have a MNK) and maybe a slight bump in damage, but enmity generation sure as hell isn't a problem on PLD, even if PLD does have the lowest base damage/modifier on the final hit on an enmity combo. The real "issue" (and honestly its not really a problem unless your OT is too busy swinging his dick to do his job properly) is just that WAR is real fuckin' dumb right now, in just about every way. Comparing PLD or DRKs enmity generation to what WAR might be pulling is gonna make both classes look bad, but you just have to remember that any added enmity after you're a little bit ahead is completely wasteful, it really doesn't matter that PLD or DRK can't put out as much when optimizing for damage. Beyond that it's just a matter of preference, I love toeing the line and trying to push DPS numbers, if they made it easier to hold hate it would take a lot of the fun out of it for me. I can understand people not sharing that same mindset, but I don't understand anyone saying enmity generation is a primary issue for the class right now.

[Dotsudoku]

No dickishness intended, but I got a little lost in your gigantic paragraph. Did you account for the difference in DPS loss when either class is forced to use enmity combos? That's where I've always felt PLD was trailing

[Kiarax]

Yeah sorry that post is kind of a mess. It's a pretty minimal difference either way that doesn't really have a fast method of testing. PLD loses 80 potency using Halone over Royal Authority. DRK loses 130 (and 884 MP) doing Power Slash over DA Souleater and 10 potency (and 884 MP) doing Power Slash over Delirium (which is what you default to if you don't have MP to DA Souleater). With how small the difference is on Delirium and Power Slash you could make a case for just doing Power Slash instead of that whenever you don't have MP, but then you're not recovering any MP via Syphon Strike, two of which equates to a DA Souleater, it's rough and not entirely accurate but if you consider that every time you Power Slash you lose half of a DA Souleater it would make the damage loss even bigger. Just slapping another -60 potency on both would make using your enmity combo over DA Souleater a 190 potency loss and a 70 potency loss over Delirium.

[Carth]

Are you sure that's not just a gap in gear? I've run plenty of shit on PLD with the exact same DPS I run Savage with on my DRK and it's never been an issue, if I don't have a NIN I open with Shield Oath for 1 or 2 Halones and then drop back to Sword and more than likely never have to Halone again. I'm not trying to imply DRK somehow has it "hard" here either but I think it's just as easy to keep hate on PLD as it is DRK.

I'm going to focus on this because this is the crux of the issue.

After a bunch of runs on PLD, I've concluded that the best rotation for burst enmity is FoF > Shield Lob(SW) > Fast Blade(CoS) > Savage Blade > Halone. Then another Halone Combo. If FoF is not up, use 3. After this, I switch to Sword Oath and do my thing.

As a DRK, opening with Unmend(Plunge) > Hard Slash(Dark Arts) > Spinning Slash(Low Blow) > Power Slash is more than enough to keep a very solid grip on enmity, no matter how much DPS they were doing. You can use DA'd Carve and Spit into Power Slash since that has slightly more enmity (4200 enmity vs 3900).

Edit: Ignore everything in the spoiler tag, it's wrong. Check this post.

Spoiler: show

Unmend: 150(x2 mod)
Plunge: 200
Hard Slash: 150
Spinning Slash: 220(x2.5 mod?)
Low Blow: 100
DA'd Power Slash: 300(x6.5 mod)
Total: 3250
With Grit: 6500
With Grit(Damage Penalty): 5200
With DarkSide: 5980
With Carve and Spit (instead of Power Slash): 6256

For PLD...

Shield Lob: 120(x2 mod)
Spirits Within: 300
Fast Blade: 150
Circle of Scorn: 100(x2 mod?) + 150
Savage Blade: 200(x2.5 mod)
Rage of Halone: 260(x5 mod)
Total: 2840
With Shield Oath: 5680
With Shield Oath(Damage Penalty): 4544
With Fight or Flight: 5907.2


If the enmity mods are correct, PLD's opener weaker than DRK but it's pretty close. The problem is after FoF ends. Sword Oath isn't enough to cover top tier DPS since PLD lacks the burst DPS to keep the gap from closing, so if your DPS are playing optimally, PLD gets creeped up on eventually and you'll eventually have to switch back to Shield Oath.

From my experience, this isn't a problem if -both- DPS are playing optimally because the boss dies fast enough before that becomes a problem. If you have one awesome DPS and one crappy DPS though the issue is a lot more apparent.

[Niiro]

Those hate mods are all kinds of wrong.

I don't know any of DRK's mods and I don't know if any of PLD or WAR's have changed with 3.0 but:

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/119...=1#post6380986

[Carth]

Corrected.

PLD's Opener: 3460
-With Shield Oath: 6920
--Damage Penalty: 5536
---With Fight or Flight: 7196.8

There's no documentation on DRK's enmity mods from what I've seen. Only seen Power Slash's enmity tossed around the internet.

[Kiarax]

Just tested DRKs, Spinning Slash is 3.5x, Power Slash is 5.5x, Unmend is 3x, Unleash is 6x and Abyssal Drain is 5x. Grit seems to be 2.3x (did they buff Shield Oath/Defiance to 2.3...? Seems really weird to give DRK a stronger one).

Edit: Okay Shield Oath and Defiance are both 2.3x now too, silly.

[Niiro]

So they're pretty much exactly in line with what WAR has.