Paladin 3.0 - Now with +1 Button

[Carth]

I don't mind having low damage but I need to have something that others cannot bring to the table and I want to avoid having all tanks homogenized under a single umbrella.

I think anyone playing PLD doesn't mind this, if not something one would expect. The current meta just doesn't play to this.

About Sentinel, fair enough, though I would argue LBs for Tanks are so worthless in this game that it shouldn't be considered. Awareness "not being useful" is exactly why it should be on the list, because there's no problem with it being on there. I don't see any issue with PLD and MNK stacking healing potency buffs. If anything it makes MNKs more desirable due to that.

[Churchill]

What's funny is as a Warrior, even before our parry move, I thought Awareness was a good skill.

It's not enough on it's own, but the biggest danger you ever face on a Warrior (especially tanking in STR gear) is taking unpredictable damage in predictable situations.

Eating a buster + getting 2 crits is a big deal. Eating a buster and the two autos is predictable.

[Edelweiss]

I think anyone playing PLD doesn't mind this, if not something one would expect. The current meta just doesn't play to this.

About Sentinel, fair enough, though I would argue LBs for Tanks are so worthless in this game that it shouldn't be considered. Awareness "not being useful" is exactly why it should be on the list, because there's no problem with it being on there. I don't see any issue with PLD and MNK stacking healing potency buffs. If anything it makes MNKs more desirable due to that.

Awareness is ironically more useful for WAR, thanks to Raw Intuition's easily compensated for flaw.

I mean.. lol.

[Taint]

What's funny is as a Warrior, even before our parry move, I thought Awareness was a good skill.

It's not enough on it's own, but the biggest danger you ever face on a Warrior (especially tanking in STR gear) is taking unpredictable damage in predictable situations.

Eating a buster + getting 2 crits is a big deal. Eating a buster and the two autos is predictable.

This. Awareness is great for flat lining incoming damage.

[OPneedNerfs]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...adin-DPS-buffs.

Thoughts about "homogenization" being the go-to reason whenever a buff to PLD damage to be more in-line with WAR?

I feel that it's waaay overused and is not even a good argument anymore after WAR changes after 2.0 and DRK being a reskin of PLD's defensive toolkit.

[Carth]

Thoughts about "homogenization" being the go-to reason whenever a buff to PLD damage to be more in-line with WAR?

I feel that it's waaay overused and is not even a good argument anymore after WAR changes after 2.0 and DRK being a reskin of PLD's defensive toolkit.

I feel it's a legit concern, but it's also a terrible excuse to not do anything at all.

I don't necessarily agree with WAR being homogenized with PLD, as their astronomical buffs in 2.1 still kept them playing quite differently. DRK on the other hand? Yeeeeeeeah...

At this point I don't care about tanks being the same. PLD needs some major QoL changes.

[OPneedNerfs]

I feel it's a legit concern, but it's also a terrible excuse to not do anything at all.

I don't necessarily agree with WAR being homogenized with PLD, as their astronomical buffs in 2.1 still kept them playing quite differently. DRK on the other hand? Yeeeeeeeah...

At this point I don't care about tanks being the same. PLD needs some major QoL changes.

The funny thing is, homogenization is mostly impossible unless the way they play are the same.

Yet the OF likes to lump "increased DPS" even if it is through different means as "homogenization" yet are extremely hostile when "increased defenses" is brought up then suddenly it's not homogenization because it plays differently.

The irrationality and absurd blindness of it all in the OF never ceases to amuse me.

[Rustangel]

The irrationality and absurd blindness of it all in the OF never ceases to amuse me.

Take a look in the mirror. You post a bunch of hostile and irrelevant non-sequiturs in my thread on the OF, and people call you out for it, so...you come over here and misrepresent my argument a second time so you can try to get a pat on the head from BG instead? Seriously, straw man. Look it up.

Once more, using small words - I am against homogenization of gameplay. I am pro homogenization of effectiveness. So all tanks should be as equally effective as possible, but in different ways? Yes? Got it now? Or do I need to draw a picture?

The thread I made was essentially to whine about uncreative and lazy "just give dmg boost" solutions to the problem of PLD lagging behind other tanks in terms of effectiveness. In effect, everything is a DPS boost if you think about it, because if you decrease raid damage or healing needed then that will result in more DPS. If you increase the PLD's defenses, that will be a DPS boost too, from healer nukes. The "irrationality and absurd blindness" is all you in this case. Stop putting words in my mouth when you think I can't see you.

[Edelweiss]

healer nukes

The bolded isn't guaranteed to reach parity with other tank compositions, at least not until they get the Accuracy to ensure a 100% hit rate across all of their offensive options.

[Niiro]

Healing and DPS are also mutually exclusive for healers and thus not as simple as increasing tank DPS as tanks are already attacking the mob fulltime already.

[Neon_Sea]

Just giving them "maor dps" is a weak route I agree though it would shut up the majority of the complainers I feel the die hard Pally's would not be satisfied. People want them to retain their identity while being an asset to the raid, SE is just too scared to do anything interesting that even proposing anything new just seems unlikely so basically we are at "maor deeps pls" which at least they can do that...i guess

[Edelweiss]

Healing and DPS are also mutually exclusive for healers and thus not as simple as increasing tank DPS as tanks are already attacking the mob fulltime already.

Pretty much. Plus, if PLD is going to relieve or reduce the healing burden this definitely pushes DPS-requirements out of healers; either they DPS effectively or they don't and fuck all was accomplished. PLD will still be inferior as a result unless you can actually synergize effective party-wide mitigation or relief within Cleric's swaps and casting.

And I already have a headache from knowing how this dev team will fuck this up. It's probably just easier and less prone to fall prey to their incompitent design decisions (that led to this situation to begin with) to increase PLD's capacity to contribute DPS. PLD (and I guess tanks in general) being the only members of the party to likely always be engaged on the mob(s) is kind of added "points" towards this being the most optimal solution (even if it's not the most desired one from the standpoint of "identity," which might not mean fuck all given the state of the job).

[Carth]

SE is just too scared to do anything interesting that even proposing anything new just seems unlikely so basically we are at "maor deeps pls" which at least they can do that...i guess

Pretty much this. I've seen some effective ideas everywhere (though mostly in this thread) that would help PLD increase Raid DPS without them losing their identity. But we already know for a fact that none of it will happen, either because it's too different or too complicated, and SE unfortunately has this idea that PLD needs to be as simple as possible. For Christ's sake, we've dealt with being the 1-2-3 job until the expansion came out, and even then we just got the leftovers from WAR.

[Rustangel]

The problem is that if you just raise PLD DPS, the next thing that will immediately happen is WAR and DRK whining that they want buffs to their mitigation. I've seen this happen before, it's like watching history repeating. The result in the past was endless back-and-forth of complaint bandwagons filled with babies whining because they don't have the same rattles that the babies on the other bandwagon have. Eventually, the parents get sick of the noise, and all babies get all rattles and that's where your diversity goes out the window. That was the whole reason I posted up on the OF.

Don't get me wrong, if SE buff PLD deeps I'll be fine with it because it advantages me and my chosen favourite job, but I'd much rather have some creative and well-implemented active defensive CDs that let me protect others as well as myself. As you guys have said though, the trick is making it so that those defensive advantages bring PLD to parity with the other tanks.

[Niiro]

They wont bitch about not having enough mitigation because mitigation isn't the problem.

Every fight is a DPS check and tanks are hardy DPS, if a tank can't contribute enough DPS to pass the check people are going to use one that will.

The only time a tank that deals less damage is ever going to be chosen over one that does more is if the latter simply cannot mitigate the incoming damage, and since every tank has to be viable as a tank that has not and will not happen.

[Rustangel]

They wont bitch about not having enough mitigation because mitigation isn't the problem.

Every fight is a DPS check and tanks are hardy DPS, if a tank can't contribute enough DPS to pass the check people are going to use one that will.

The only time a tank that deals less damage is ever going to be chosen over one that does more is if the latter simply cannot mitigate the incoming damage, and since every tank has to be viable as a tank that has not and will not happen.

"PLD does as much damage as DRK and WAR but needs less healing! UNFAIR! BUFF DRK MITIGATION! GIVE WAR HALLOWED GROUND!" etc etc

I can hear it now...can't you?

[Niiro]

Not really, no.

Because when people take PLD and hit enrage because there isn't enough damage that mitigation will amount to roughly dick.

[Neon_Sea]

Not really because Warrior has superior raid-centric mitigation anyway. Drk is whatever that whole class exist so people can hold a big sword I don't think people care what it does right or wrong.

[OPneedNerfs]

"PLD does as much damage as DRK and WAR but needs less healing! UNFAIR! BUFF DRK MITIGATION! GIVE WAR HALLOWED GROUND!" etc etc

I can hear it now...can't you?

Yep, you are just as out of touch with the game and tanks as I figured you were. No differences here.

[Carth]

PLD's mitigation isn't strong enough to be noticeable. Honestly, it's only really noticable to the players that actually play the jobs.

PLD has the best mitigation when they can block, but that's only in passive mitigation. This doesn't really matter when handling tank busters, as regardless of what passive mitigation PLD has, they're going to have to use cooldowns to not get wrecked, and regardless of the tank, healers will heal the same way.

This is why WAR and DRK are actually better at mitigation for Savage, if not the majority of content, due to Storm's Path/Reprisal/Delirium, which lowers raid-wide damage. WAR also has an on-demand Rampart and DRK's Dark Mind is on the 60s cooldown. The higher DPS, especially in AoE, just cements the argument and blows PLD out of the water.