Paladin 3.0 - Now with +1 Button

[Niiro]

and DRK's Dark Mind is on the 90s cooldown.

60s*

[Carth]

60s*

Fixed. I haven't touched DRK in ages.

[Rustangel]

Not really, no.

Because when people take PLD and hit enrage because there isn't enough damage that mitigation will amount to roughly dick.

Sorry, weren't we were discussing a hypothetical situation where PLD's damage was already increased to equal WAR/DRK? So they wouldn't hit that enrage, and PLD would be putting out comparable DPS while having (perceived or actual) superior mitigation because of its historical niche as the defensive tank. It's not about the actual reality of the situation, the thing I'm concerned about is the perceived reality. Which is what people actually complain about.

If you guys think you can buff PLD's damage to be the same as WAR without WARs complaining about it, you are delusional

[Neon_Sea]

First of all, Pld has no burst so a sustained dps that was even HIGHER than war I doubt anyone would care since burst is so important . Second "people complaining" about something that is not an issue is irrelevant, why even discuss that? There are zero mitigation issues stopping tanks from entering raids at the moment.

[Rustangel]

First of all, Pld has no burst so a sustained dps that was even HIGHER than war I doubt anyone would care since burst is so important . Second "people complaining" about something that is not an issue is irrelevant, why even discuss that? There are zero mitigation issues stopping tanks from entering raids at the moment.

Ok, I am confused. Read back over the last page or so - we are discussing PLD DPS being buffed to parity with WAR, a hypothetical situation. I suggested that WAR/DRK would complain if PLD DPS was buffed, because of a perceived lack of fairness, and Niiro said that they wouldn't care because they would hit the enrage timer with PLD, which makes no sense...because we were discussing what would happen if PLD's damage had been increased? Or I was, anyway.

People would complain about it because they would think it was an issue. And it's not irrelevant, if the devs listen to the complaints and make buffs and nerfs accordingly, which is what my whole OF post was originally about.

I'm suggesting that many players would not care about the facts, they'd only see things as "PLD is supposed to be defensive, but they do as much damage as my WAR. Waaaa. Give me buffs."

[Carth]

So what you're saying is WAR shouldn't have been buffed.

[Neon_Sea]

OK screw hypothetical and what people think for a second. It is pretty obvious what Niiro was implying, you run pld you hit enrage gg. No one would complain if you raised their dps because that was a glaring obvious issue that tons of progression groups dealt with. So it wouldn't be a buff it would just be putting them into a viable position.

REAL issue - Pld dps single target and aoe can hold back progression in current content. This is a fact as I have witnessed and been affected by.

NOT an issue - Mitigation or lack there of causing progression problems.

Seriously who cares what OF idiots cry about, discuss what matters not hypothetical complaints and dev responses to that.

[TheDirtyHobo]

PLD's mitigation isn't strong enough to be noticeable. Honestly, it's only really noticable to the players that actually play the jobs.

This is the root problem. They don't want to increase PLD's DPS enough to 'threaten' DRK, but their mitigation is only marginally better than DRK so that it doesn't make a reasonable difference. You're left with 2 options, then. Increase personal DPS or increase mitigation. One option essentially makes it the same job as the other two, the other option makes it different (but equally as effective if tuned properly).

Give the Storm's path effect to Royal Authority, change Storm's Path to 100% heal and a 5% personal mitigation. Allow Sheltron to block magic hits. Now all of a sudden PLD is reasonably desirable without increasing their DPS.

OK screw hypothetical and what people think for a second. It is pretty obvious what Niiro was implying, you run pld you hit enrage gg.

This is held up as the holy grail of PLD arguments, but it's entirely low-hanging fruit. No one ever complains about WAR being a less viable tank because of lower mitigation: if a WAR dies it's because healers didn't do their job or cooldowns were not used properly. Git gud and do it next time. Yet enrage + PLD it's easiest to automatically point fingers at a PLD rather than analyze who may not be pulling their weight or what could be done to improve.

[AlastorTGN]

I've long thought that PLD should have had Storm's Eye debuff and WAR have Storm's Path (I guess WAR's str down debuff is now RoH's effect), not only would it make PLD's better at defensive utility but it's more thematic for it to be this way, DRK has Reprisal and I honestly like it being a proc ability it should just be more % debuff due to that fact, makes it interesting imo.

By the way, does anyone have the emnity modifiers for all three Tanks? I say PLD has needed an emnity modifer since 3.0 but most people tend to disagree, DRK can boost their Emnity to a ludicrous degree that they basically don't have to do it more than once usually, WAR's emnity combo is their strongest combo of their 3 they have. Given how DPS issues is a thing with PLD, it's not helping that I have to use Halone more to stop people peeling aggro off me.

I dunno if I'm just terrible but I'm having my WHM steal aggro off me in AS3 if I try to do the Goring/RA/RA rotation, I know the Halone debuff helps in AS3 anyway but I don't need it up 100%.

And I've been mulling over whether our lack of AoE is an acceptable gameplay quirk or not, but I think we don't really have anything to compensate this, ads as a DRK is super easy and pretty fun yet they don't exactly hurt in single target to PLD either. I don't think it's homogenization if all 3 classes had AoE capabilities as long as it was harder to do as a DRK and even harder to do as a WAR and vastly different in execution amongst all 3

[Rustangel]

OK screw hypothetical and what people think for a second. It is pretty obvious what Niiro was implying, you run pld you hit enrage gg. No one would complain if you raised their dps because that was a glaring obvious issue that tons of progression groups dealt with. So it wouldn't be a buff it would just be putting them into a viable position.

REAL issue - Pld dps single target and aoe can hold back progression in current content. This is a fact as I have witnessed and been affected by.

NOT an issue - Mitigation or lack there of causing progression problems.

Seriously who cares what OF idiots cry about, discuss what matters not hypothetical complaints and dev responses to that.

Listen. If the devs make changes based on those "OF idiots" then the hypothetical situation will become the actual situation. Assuming it's your complaints that happen to get listened to, you'll be saying "Yey, PLD got buffs" while others are saying "This sucks, PLD is OP". The fact that you personally disagree with that is 100% irrelevant, if the devs listen to the mob, because the mob doesn't care about facts. Next thing you know, the mob decides PLD is now OP, DRK and WAR get a mitigation buff because forum crying, and then you're back to complaining about PLD needing another damage buff. Are you seeing a pattern here?

Can you guys honestly not see the cognitive dissonance here?

"We will complain about PLD DPS and be angry that nothing is being done, but it doesn't matter if we get buffs and WARs and DRKs are angry and complain, because they are wrong."

[AlastorTGN]

Was it actually 100% impossible to beat enrage on AS3/4 in week 1 as PLD?

[Carth]

IIRC, Blue Gartr had a PLD and beat AS3 first week.

Edit: Not first week, but it was before everyone got Eso Weapons.

[Niiro]

No one cleared AS3/4 in week 1 period.

"We will complain about PLD DPS and be angry that nothing is being done, but it doesn't matter if we get buffs and WARs and DRKs are angry and complain, because they are wrong."

.......are you upset that we don't care about the ignorant and flawed arguments shat out on the OF? You say this like it's a bad thing.

This isn't the OF, but we have a thread where we make fun of the OF if you want to feel more at home I guess.

[Neon_Sea]

This is the root problem. They don't want to increase PLD's DPS enough to 'threaten' DRK, but their mitigation is only marginally better than DRK so that it doesn't make a reasonable difference. You're left with 2 options, then. Increase personal DPS or increase mitigation. One option essentially makes it the same job as the other two, the other option makes it different (but equally as effective if tuned properly).

Give the Storm's path effect to Royal Authority, change Storm's Path to 100% heal and a 5% personal mitigation. Allow Sheltron to block magic hits. Now all of a sudden PLD is reasonably desirable without increasing their DPS.



This is held up as the holy grail of PLD arguments, but it's entirely low-hanging fruit. No one ever complains about WAR being a less viable tank because of lower mitigation: if a WAR dies it's because healers didn't do their job or cooldowns were not used properly. Git gud and do it next time. Yet enrage + PLD it's easiest to automatically point fingers at a PLD rather than analyze who may not be pulling their weight or what could be done to improve.

I agree somewhat but at least there is an answer there that makes sense. In reality when I got my clear in a2s with a drk doing 700-1000 dps vs trying it with a pld doing 1/2 to 1/3 the damage made it extremely rough. My group did not BLAME the pld it was merely the reason we were able to clear so easily before. Instead we sucked it up and found the dps to do it. It is the fact that the discrepancy exist that annoys me.

When Pld did MORE sustained dps than a Warrior in 2.x did people complain?

[AlastorTGN]

Also, on the subject of WAR complaining about anything in 3.0, anyone really going to be sympathetic?

That said I really don't want them to be nerfed, I guess that's contradictory to me wanting them to lose SP to PLD, but I don't think it will destroy the WAR/Tanking meta will it?

[Carth]

When Pld did MORE sustained dps than a Warrior in 2.x did people complain?

To be fair, this is only because WAR was providing Storm's Eye which made this possible. It's less about PLD dealing more dps than WAR and more about PLD/WAR being the superior (and most versatile) tank combo.

[AlastorTGN]

So what do you guys do in big pulls then, dps wise?

Assuming aggro is established and Scorn has cast, is it just...Goring everything one by one?

[Carth]

Optimally, yes. Once hate is established you apply Goring Blade to everything. In my current STR gear I can reach ~700 dps with that method. Very crappy in comparison to literally every other job but that's the best we got.

[Neon_Sea]

To be fair, this is only because WAR was providing Storm's Eye which made this possible. It's less about PLD dealing more dps than WAR and more about PLD/WAR being the superior (and most versatile) tank combo.

Fair enough.

[AlastorTGN]

Optimally, yes. Once hate is established you apply Goring Blade to everything. In my current STR gear I can reach ~700 dps with that method. Very crappy in comparison to literally every other job but that's the best we got.

And what if you have two very good DPS single targeting different ads? It's my metric for telling whether a DPS in DF is good or not without a parse (PS4 player): how much I'm allowed to actually get away with. It's rare (at least for me) but in Fractal I occasionally have 2 really good DPS classes playing with me even though they don't AoE.

(afaik MNK is above decent for AoE now?, as a DRG player I sympathise with them not wanting to AoE)

So I lose hate and feel like it's my fault for not just spamming flash or 123ing everything or something, if you can single out the dps targets (hard to do sometimes in a big mob) you can try to Halone them I guess, but this isn't fun.

It ties back to my wanting an emnity buff for PLD, I don't think I'm terrible, I see PLD's in AS3 videos MTing in Sword Oath with no aggro problems somehow and I can't seem to emulate this. And if you have a NIN in your party, am I to take the fact that they can redirect aggro onto you as SE saying "A good NIN WILL rip aggro so we had to give them this" or is it a crutch, feels kinda bad needing it even if it's a good example of SE putting interesting party dynamics into the game.