Paladin 3.0 - Now with +1 Button

[Carth]

Honestly if they're going single target vs large trash pulls I would hesitate to call them good DPS. MNK actually has very strong AoE dps.

As for PLD's enmity, it's arguably stronger than DRK's. This is because PLD's DPS rotation applies Savage Blade while DRK has no enmity mods whatsoever. And for their openers, PLD edges out of DRK due to Fight or Flight. Enmity generation varies with DRK due to Low Blow/Reprisal procs, but either way PLD's enmity isn't as abyssmal as it seems.

The real problem with PLD's enmity generation is the lack of on-demand enmity burst. This is only possible with Fight or Flight, which you obviously want to use with Sword Oath. DRK however only really needs one DA'd Power Slash to widen the gap comfortably.

[AlastorTGN]

I must confess, I still do it but I hate AoEing as a DRG, HT - RoT - DS spam with Jumps...you may do hefty damage, but you're still out of TP by the end, I can't think of any dungeon where a speedy run will let me not have this issue, as a Bard and BLM it's fine though.

And I just remembered another thing that bugged the shit out off me in my past few AS3 attempts, it was said earlier in this thread I think, but (correct me if I'm wrong) basically for a WHM to heal more they pump up their MND, a NIN his DEX, a MNK his STR and all 3 of these being increased results in stronger heals and stronger hits (and crits) and more aggro gain.

For me as a PLD, I've had to sub out some STR for VIT, which doesn't affect my aggro gain at all, I dunno' if this is really why I'm having such aggro problems, I can hold it if I double down on RoH and it's also dynamic depending on how hard heals are spammed ofc. But for a PLD specificially, more VIT affects skills like Divine Veil and Spirits Within, but this is only making us even weaker in return, it's just odd.

[Niiro]

I must confess, I still do it but I hate AoEing as a DRG, HT - RoT - DS spam with Jumps...you may do hefty damage, but you're still out of TP by the end, I can't think of any dungeon where a speedy run will let me not have this issue, as a Bard and BLM it's fine though.

Just because you run out of TP doesn't make it not the most efficient use of that TP.

[AlastorTGN]

I know, that's why I still do it but the faster the run, the more unprepared you get for the next pull.

[TheDirtyHobo]

I agree somewhat but at least there is an answer there that makes sense. In reality when I got my clear in a2s with a drk doing 700-1000 dps vs trying it with a pld doing 1/2 to 1/3 the damage made it extremely rough. My group did not BLAME the pld it was merely the reason we were able to clear so easily before. Instead we sucked it up and found the dps to do it. It is the fact that the discrepancy exist that annoys me.

PLD doing 1/2 the damage of DRK is a problem with the PLD player, not the class itself. My point is that the 200-300 DPS difference between a PLD and DRK is so easy to point to as "the one singular reason we didn't meet a DPS check, period" when you've got 4 dedicated DPS that are probably missing >300 off their theoretical class ceiling anyways, and that's before considering inefficiencies of the tanks and healers. If you don't have that, well, you're Elysium or Lucrezia or BG and you're min-maxing to the point that arguing balance is irrelevant because when there's 3 tanks and 2 tank slots, the least ideal one is going to be left out.

When Pld did MORE sustained dps than a Warrior in 2.x did people complain?

Yes and no, but it was also such a radically different situation then that it hardly applies. When you look at it from a tanking perspective, everything fell into place. PLD did less damage and had much better mitigation, WAR did better damage but had less mitigation. Cut and dry. It only gets whacky when you consider offtanks; a fulltime sword oath PLD slightly beat a no-defiance WAR. And people did complain because it's counter-intuitive to the stated design intentions of the classes. Not all that widespread, because this was not a widespread fact. And it only happened when the PLD got slashing debuff, which still secured WAR's value to a party. And it was only when the PLD didn't have to waste precious GCDs stance-dancing. Despite that, SE still put Deliverance in as a fix to this issue.

[AlastorTGN]

PLD did less damage and had much better mitigation, WAR did better damage but had less mitigation.

I know on paper this is true but in practice? couldn't a WAR just stick to Defiance all fight and do nothing but Butcher's Block combo as his 123 and still effectively manage to out Turtle a PLD with more flexible CDs? (this is not even mentioning their own shit they can do in Defiance like Unchained tp hit more dps)

[Rustangel]

.......are you upset that we don't care about the ignorant and flawed arguments shat out on the OF? You say this like it's a bad thing.

This isn't the OF, but we have a thread where we make fun of the OF if you want to feel more at home I guess.

Nice ad hominem! Lump me in with a group you consider yourself superior to. Now you can win without needing to debate anything!

Fo' reals tho, someone who can't understand the basic difference between a hypothetical situation and a statement of fact has no business making fun of anyone else

Clearly some of you have grown too used to the comforting warmth of your echo chamber. Ah well. You'll only get weaker as time goes on.

[Carth]

Except that's not what he said. He's saying if you want to talk about how silly and ignorant OF is, you can do so in that thread.

That said, you're making shitty arguments yourself. To the point where I'm wondering if you've even bothered reading the rebuttals.

[OPneedNerfs]

Nice ad hominem! Lump me in with a group you consider yourself superior to. Now you can win without needing to debate anything!

Fo' reals tho, someone who can't understand the basic difference between a hypothetical situation and a statement of fact has no business making fun of anyone else

Clearly some of you have grown too used to the comforting warmth of your echo chamber. Ah well. You'll only get weaker as time goes on.

Just stop, the OF and this forums both have proven that:

1. You don't understand the game/tanks.

2. You're just trying to put forth an argument that does not hold water when already proven by multiple others.

At this point, you just sound like a defeated child just crying for attention because you did not think things through with the original post and people have disagreed and put your post down.

[Rustangel]

Except that's not what he said. He's saying if you want to talk about how silly and ignorant OF is, you can do so in that thread.

That said, you're making shitty arguments yourself. To the point where I'm wondering if you've even bothered reading the rebuttals.

we have a thread where we make fun of the OF if you want to feel more at home

you want to feel more at home

Uh-huh. This is clearly implying that he thinks the OF is full of idiots, and I am one of those idiots so I should go to the thread where you all make fun of them.

And how can you tell my arguments are shitty, out of interest? Nobody has actually discussed them so far...

[Carth]

Because there is no discussion to be had. We already have a real life example of when SE ignored the playerbase which I've already brought up but you witlessly ignored.

2.0 - 2.1 WAR Buffs is when they added more mitigation to the job, instead of adding more healing potency to their abilities. Not only were PLDs annoyed by this but WARs were also annoyed that they no longer had the 300% Damage to Heal Conversion from Inner Beast. Going by your argument, SE should've buffed PLD's mitigation further, but they didn't. After the WAR buffs, both tank jobs stayed the same until the expansion.

There are a lot of things to rag on SE about, but this is not one of them. If they acted like you think they would then WAR would still be barely functional as a tank.

[Rustangel]

Because there is no discussion to be had. We already have a real life example of when SE ignored the playerbase which I've already brought up but you witlessly ignored.

2.0 - 2.1 WAR Buffs is when they added more mitigation to the job, instead of adding more healing potency to their abilities. Not only were PLDs annoyed by this but WARs were also annoyed that they no longer had the 300% Damage to Heal Conversion from Inner Beast. Going by your argument, SE should've buffed PLD's mitigation further, but they didn't. After the WAR buffs, both tank jobs stayed the same until the expansion.

There are a lot of things to rag on SE about, but this is not one of them. If they acted like you think they would then WAR would still be barely functional as a tank.

Yep, this is (once again) not my argument. GG.

Let me break it down.

Me: "It would be bad to fix PLD's lack of parity by lazily buffing their DPS, we should be trying to stay true to the defensive heart of the job"

You: "They buffed WAR's mitigation in 2.1 and that annoyed PLDs and WARs. So your argument is invalid."

I'm curious to know how you think those two things relate to each other. You're literally just making a vaguely related point, and arguing that instead. Unless you're saying that homogenising the classes by giving WARs more mitigation annoyed people, and so it would be bad to repeat that mistake...by buffing PLD's DPS...which is literally my argument...thanks for agreeing with me...

[Carth]

The amount of stupid in that post is off the charts. You have no comprehension of what I'm saying, and instead decide to twist the post into something that favors you.

I suggest you leave this thread and go back to OF where the idiots there may appreciate your methods.

[OPneedNerfs]

Yep, this is (once again) not my argument. GG.

Let me break it down.

Me: "It would be bad to fix PLD's lack of parity by lazily buffing their DPS, we should be trying to stay true to the defensive heart of the job"

You: "They buffed WAR's mitigation in 2.1 and that annoyed PLDs and WARs. So your argument is invalid."

I'm curious to know how you think those two things relate to each other. You're literally just making a vaguely related point, and arguing that instead. Unless you're saying that homogenising the classes by giving WARs more mitigation annoyed people, and so it would be bad to repeat that mistake...by buffing PLD's DPS...which is literally my argument...thanks for agreeing with me...

Keep up the whining and crying. This is hilarious.

[Rustangel]

The amount of stupid in that post is off the charts. You have no comprehension of what I'm saying, and instead decide to twist the post into something that favors you.

I suggest you leave this thread and go back to OF where the idiots there may appreciate your methods.

Hilarious. That is literally all you and the other Mean Girls have been doing with every post I make in here. The level of obtuse, blockheaded failure to comprehend the most basic language is absolutely mind-blowing. It's like you can't hear any piece of information that doesn't match something you already agree with. You're can't discuss anything that isn't more of the same "hur hur we r so smart and OF is dumb" trashy and baseless elitism, so you doggedly and stupidly argue a totally unrelated point that doesn't challenge your precious preconceptions. And then, you still fail and fail, and fail again to even understand, so you finally attack with bitchy remarks and insults.

I've done my time in so-called "elite" MMO communities, and I am honestly shocked at how fucking stupid the responses in this thread have been, and continue to be. Don't want to damn the whole community based on a couple of individual posters, but if this is any indication of what passes for debate around here then the fact that you actually have a thread where you circlejerk over your perceived intellectual superiority over the OF is inexpressably ironic. EJ were assholes, but at least they knew their shit.

I pasted this thread into a Skype chat with some friends last night, and we all had a good laugh. They told me that I literally cannot win this argument, because the people I am arguing with are just too fucking stupid to understand the things they're reading, and I knew they were right but I pushed on regardless. Unfortunately for you though, my time/entertainment differential has slipped too far into diminishing returns, so there's no need to ask me twice - I'm out.

Don't worry, the advantage of being a bit dim is that you'll soon forget about the fact that you didn't get it.

Keep up the whining and crying. This is hilarious.

Oh, it's you! I thought you stopped posting because you got your ass handed to you and decided to wait until you could gang up on me with someone else who could use polysyllabic words. Oh no, wait, that's exactly what you did. Have fun eating your own shit and telling each other how good it tastes! ^_^

[Neon_Sea]

Yep, this is (once again) not my argument. GG.

Let me break it down.

Me: "It would be bad to fix PLD's lack of parity by lazily buffing their DPS, we should be trying to stay true to the defensive heart of the job"

You: "They buffed WAR's mitigation in 2.1 and that annoyed PLDs and WARs. So your argument is invalid."

I'm curious to know how you think those two things relate to each other. You're literally just making a vaguely related point, and arguing that instead. Unless you're saying that homogenising the classes by giving WARs more mitigation annoyed people, and so it would be bad to repeat that mistake...by buffing PLD's DPS...which is literally my argument...thanks for agreeing with me...

This was already addressed, by Carth even a page or two back not to mention most of this thread. Would it be nice to accentuate pld defense style? Sure. Will you still bring war and drk because dps? Most likely. Will SE make changes to pld defense? Probably not. Are they more likely to boost dps? Yes.

Now back to the OF with you.

[OPneedNerfs]

Hilarious. That is literally all you and the other Mean Girls have been doing with every post I make in here. The level of obtuse, blockheaded failure to comprehend the most basic language is absolutely mind-blowing. It's like you can't hear any piece of information that doesn't match something you already agree with. You're can't discuss anything that isn't more of the same "hur hur we r so smart and OF is dumb" trashy and baseless elitism, so you doggedly and stupidly argue a totally unrelated point that doesn't challenge your precious preconceptions. And then, you still fail and fail, and fail again to even understand, so you finally attack with bitchy remarks and insults.

I've done my time in so-called "elite" MMO communities, and I am honestly shocked at how fucking stupid the responses in this thread have been, and continue to be. Don't want to damn the whole community based on a couple of individual posters, but if this is any indication of what passes for debate around here then the fact that you actually have a thread where you circlejerk over your perceived intellectual superiority over the OF is inexpressably ironic. EJ were assholes, but at least they knew their shit.

I pasted this thread into a Skype chat with some friends last night, and we all had a good laugh. They told me that I literally cannot win this argument, because the people I am arguing with are just too fucking stupid to understand the things they're reading, and I knew they were right but I pushed on regardless. Unfortunately for you though, my time/entertainment differential has slipped too far into diminishing returns, so there's no need to ask me twice - I'm out.

Don't worry, the advantage of being a bit dim is that you'll soon forget about the fact that you didn't get it.



Oh, it's you! I thought you stopped posting because you got your ass handed to you and decided to wait until you could gang up on me with someone else who could use polysyllabic words. Oh no, wait, that's exactly what you did. Have fun eating your own shit and telling each other how good it tastes! ^_^

Look at the little child crying and whining after having lost with an argument and can't do anything else but insult other people and saying "how great I am".

Seriously, if you ever want to be taken seriously, you need to stop the way you think. You are not always right, and in this case, you definitely aren't especially when presented with multiple reasons why you aren't.

Instead of coming up with any logical reasons to strengthen your points, you just simply choose to ignore what others have said and think you are "better" but in reality and it is plain for all to see, you are just a plain scrub who can only spew garbage at people who have been giving you reasons why.

Go back to the OF, or don't, I'm having fun laughing at the irrationality of your posts and how you keep coming back for more.

[Brill Weave]

I'm here. Anyone wanna guess what happens next?

[Lokus]

Sorry, weren't we were discussing a hypothetical situation where PLD's damage was already increased to equal WAR/DRK? So they wouldn't hit that enrage, and PLD would be putting out comparable DPS while having (perceived or actual) superior mitigation because of its historical niche as the defensive tank. It's not about the actual reality of the situation, the thing I'm concerned about is the perceived reality. Which is what people actually complain about.

If you guys think you can buff PLD's damage to be the same as WAR without WARs complaining about it, you are delusional

First, we need to fix this comprehension issue that started a string of bad replies. Another way to interpret Niiro's reply is, "no one will care about the extra mitigation a PLD brings, even if their dps was on par with WAR". Second, anyone complaining that jobs are actually balanced doesn't deserve any attention.

Plain and simple, SE is going to design bosses and tankbusters that all 3 tanks can survive. Where they fucked up was balancing their dps so a PLD/WAR, PLD/DRK, and WAR/DRK provide roughly the same raid dps.

[Kiarax]

WARs were also annoyed that they no longer had the 300% Damage to Heal Conversion from Inner Beast.

Actually I feel like I was the only one who was mad about this! Still salty though, don't worry.