Paladin 3.0 - Now with +1 Button

[FHT]

For real, even in PF for EX primals, I have seen lots of people restricting the tank duo to 2 PLD. Maybe it was out of being silly.

Edit;

As usual it seems to have fallen on the fucking players to get them to fix their broken shit.

They just have a tunnel vision of things, we can't help it.

Most of the condescending PLDs just changed to condescending WARs/DRKs. The ones that are left are the ones that really enjoyed the class but didn't shit all over WARs.

Maybe, I don't know. I just alway seen some sort of superiority complex coming from PLDs in everything I was doing involving 8+ players.

[Carth]

Your server is just a piece of shit then.

[Prothescar]

SE, continuously managing to prove how far they have their heads up their own asses. Barely any of the news lately has been anything beyond negative or lukewarm.

[Dr. Pavel]

Yoshi saying PLD "isn't weak" is pretty fucking funny because I'm pretty sure that by now it's the only job in the game with absolutely zero confirmed A4S clears and with how fucking horrible that fight is for them I expect that to remain the case for a while. That and he seems to always deny that jobs are in need of buffs, before they go and get buffed anyway. Of course, it could always end up being that the 3.1 PLD adjustments are completely minor horseshit and the class continues to get benched forever because of the simple fact this dev team seems to design tanks but never ever play them or even test them.

[Hioki]

Yoshi saying PLD "isn't weak" is pretty fucking funny because I'm pretty sure that by now it's the only job in the game with absolutely zero confirmed A4S clears and with how fucking horrible that fight is for them I expect that to remain the case for a while. That and he seems to always deny that jobs are in need of buffs, before they go and get buffed anyway. Of course, it could always end up being that the 3.1 PLD adjustments are completely minor horseshit and the class continues to get benched forever because of the simple fact this dev team seems to design tanks but never ever play them or even test them.

PLD Clear
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYKsS14fBZw

[Seravi Edalborez]

Obviously having your game tested by millions of player (or rather thousands of raiders) is a pretty good way to get a feel-around for the limits of your job design, even when said limits are pretty low. There are limits to internal testing and I think most people here know that. But SE's insistence that they know what's best is kind of depressingly hilarious now. And this is coming from someone who felt that SE often caved too easily on some issues in the past.

I could imagine a stance taken by SE where they think the sliding scale of DPS-to-mitigation is "good enough"... assuming all tanks never leave tank stance. You know, because every fight has something for both tanks to tank, and they don't want to confuse new players by implying they should try to hold hate in not-tank stance.

WAR is crazy because we recognize how to be crazy with it. Swapping into Deliverance and unleashing Fell Cleave bombs is probably not how SE thought "we" would be using it. They probably thought you'd only do this as an actual off-tank. Or rather, they design around the bitchy, slow, awful middle-class of players rather than the also-bitchy upper-class raiding community. I dunno how loudly or often the JP raiders share our sentiments but chances are we're being so obnoxious about it that we're not being paid a lot of attention anyways. JP mentality is "deal with the hand the devs deal you".

And/or, I dunno maybe they think all the checks are irrelevant when tested in full 210. I would be interested to know if they test with a certain party composition, several comps, or what.

The flip side to "PLD is weak, everyone else is strong" is "PLD is not weak, everyone else is not weak-er" (or, "PLD is strong, everyone else is stronger". It's all about how you twist your words and make people feel empowered. Getting on a small soapbox here, "EXP fatigue" vs "Rested EXP bonus": I never saw a difference (excepting the very early 1.0 where Fatigue could take you to 0%; we're talking like 50% penalty that has a cooldown while you don't play vs 50% bonus that fills when you don't play) yet the former is lauded and the latter is praised.

[Edelweiss]

Yoshi saying PLD "isn't weak" is pretty fucking funny because I'm pretty sure that by now it's the only job in the game with absolutely zero confirmed A4S clears and with how fucking horrible that fight is for them I expect that to remain the case for a while. That and he seems to always deny that jobs are in need of buffs, before they go and get buffed anyway. Of course, it could always end up being that the 3.1 PLD adjustments are completely minor horseshit and the class continues to get benched forever because of the simple fact this dev team seems to design tanks but never ever play them or even test them.

PLD Clear
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYKsS14fBZw

It'd be best to just put this in context as groups running PLD will clear weeks later than groups running WAR/WAR or WAR/DRK. That said, the rest is pretty much the case it seems.

[Kaisha]

For real, even in PF for EX primals, I have seen lots of people restricting the tank duo to 2 PLD. Maybe it was out of being silly.

Probably casuals who think the only way to do double-prey in RavEX is to Hallowed Ground.

[Carth]

PLD Clear
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYKsS14fBZw

His HUD freaks me the fuck out.

All of those failed Stoneskin casts though.

[TheDirtyHobo]

Getting on a small soapbox here, "EXP fatigue" vs "Rested EXP bonus": I never saw a difference (excepting the very early 1.0 where Fatigue could take you to 0%; we're talking like 50% penalty that has a cooldown while you don't play vs 50% bonus that fills when you don't play) yet the former is lauded and the latter is praised.

In the interest of pedantry, it's -33% vs +50%, and lauded and praised are basically the same thing.

[Seravi Edalborez]

Meant some negative word instead of lauded. My thesaurus-fu glitched out.

[Edelweiss]

Meant some negative word instead of lauded. My thesaurus-fu glitched out.

Loathed?

[Obsidian]

Criticised or condemned would work better, I think.

[Carth]

Yes, Yoshida kept telling players that War was fine for a good part of 2.0 until they finally realized that players were doing Coil differently than how they had tested it (though how they were doing those fights that somehow didn't showcase War's issues is an X-files level of mystery to me). This is still mind-boggling that he thinks Pld is fine but we'll see how the adjustments pan out.

From what I remember, SE stated they underestimated the effectiveness of PLD's cooldowns. For instance, in T1, their internal testing went in with the intention of keeping damage stacks at 0, while the playerbase has allowed stacks to get up to 2/3 in favor of stronger dps to end the fight faster. PLD's cooldowns handled this easily while WAR struggled really, really hard.

This was definitely from a dev post but I couldn't link it because I wouldn't know where to find it.

Didn't they say in a LL in the past (but after HW release) that the reason WAR was stronger than PLD was 'because of the slashing debuff' (I believe in the infamous 'git gud' LL) was because of the slashing debuff? (disregarding all the other fucking stuff)

Straight from the horse's mouth:

Q4. Even though they’re a tank, warriors can deal a lot of damage, will paladin and dark knight be able to deal a similar amount of damage?

A4. The reason warriors DPS is high is because they have a debuff where they can decrease a target’s slashing resistance.

As an off tank, dark knights can also utilize the benefits from this debuff’s effect and that will also allow them to output similar amounts of damage. Paladins are specialized in defense so their damage output is a little bit lower.

As for how warriors can output more DPS while main tanking, paladins have strong physical damage reduction and powerful actions like Hallowed Ground, dark knights have a strong magical damage reduction in Dark Mind, so these are the differences from the job designs.

The quote basically screams "missed the point" and "uninformed", if not ignorant.

Like Seravi said, it's obvious they never tested how effective WAR/DRK/PLD is while in dps stances in Savage, and this is probably due to their testing method, as their internal testing consist of using ideal gear and then lowering the dps check by 15%. This means they never attempt to push tanks (and probably healers) to their limits while being undergeared.

The problem is they should know now. There's videos flooded everywhere by this point and the information is all over the internet. By this point they should be acknowledging they either overtuned Warrior's dps to mitigation ratio or they fucked up badly with Paladin.

[OPneedNerfs]

What I gather happened to WAR 2.0 and what might be happening to PLD now.

Yoshi: X job is strong. Git gud.
Community: WTF? *majority finally bandwagons to another job*

Yoshi: Why are there so few of Xjob around? *checks clear videos*
Yoshi: So THAT'S why. *proceeds to do tests with different mindset*

-few weeks/months later-

Yoshi: Hey guys, X job is strong but because we love u guys so much, we're gonna give it a buff.

Players of X job pre-changes: @#!;*:#&:
Bandwagoners: X job was fine, didn't need any changes, etc.

-few weeks later-
Bandwagoners to X job: Haha yeah X job is balanced now. QQ moar players of other jobs.

[AlastorTGN]

Also, any other PLDs annoyed that people are perfectly fine with MNK getting a tweak alongside AST/DRK last patch, but saying PLD needs one (even just some buffs, not a complete fucking overhaul) triggers people?

Regardless, if they got fixed I hope that's a precedent and that they don't look at that PUG clear with a PLD class and think "If a PUG can do it fine, class is fine".

[Carth]

T5 was cleared with a WAR MT in 2.0 and they still got overhauled. Even if Yoshida doesn't see a problem, his balance team tends to investigate anyway.

[Detzu]

Yoshi saying PLD "isn't weak" is pretty fucking funny because I'm pretty sure that by now it's the only job in the game with absolutely zero confirmed A4S clears and with how fucking horrible that fight is for them I expect that to remain the case for a while. That and he seems to always deny that jobs are in need of buffs, before they go and get buffed anyway. Of course, it could always end up being that the 3.1 PLD adjustments are completely minor horseshit and the class continues to get benched forever because of the simple fact this dev team seems to design tanks but never ever play them or even test them.

Iirc some people even cleared with PLD/PLD.
Not as good = weak? I think the choice of words really matters here. If you say that PLD is weak then people like Yoshi won't listen to you because that's not entirely true.
But we know PLD is not as good as DRK or WAR in a lot of aspects defensively or offensively.

[AlastorTGN]

If a WAR or DRK can survive any fight in the game, then why is PLD supposed to be the best at it? I am not great at WAR but I'm guess a simple pop of Sentinel for PLD is a hasty Deliverence to Defiance swap, Infuriate to Inner Beast/Vengeance to mitigate the same attack? Is this hard?

How fucked is DRK in a more physical based fight like AS2/3? People are saying 'once the next raid comes out and is physical based as opposed to magical, PLD will be top again' as if DRK is going to be in deep shit?

Unless I'm wrong, it just stinks of people who used to say WARs were super squishy compared to PLD.

[Detzu]

In a physical damage heavy fight, WAR and DRK are probably slightly behind PLD because of the block rate and strength. But this slight difference is outweighed anyway by the dmg output by a war or a drk compared to pld.