Paladin 3.0 - Now with +1 Button

[Churchill]

I would imagine it would depend more on how often Warrior needs to use Inner Beast.

• If you need to use it for every tank buster, then you have to save it since those are generally ~30s each.
  
• If you don't need it for every tank buster, but you still need it, then you've got that damage reduction up ~18s/63s.
  
• If you don't need it at all, then you use it for Fell Cleave and this discussion is moot.

Paladin would need a really incredible block rate if scenario #2 was in play to beat out Warrior.

Edit: If I actually had to mitigate stuff and MT on progression, scenario #2 was usually how I played it. Scenario #3 is a more HW approach, and seems to be the way to go for Savage.

Edit2: In HW, Warrior also gets 10% extra Parry rate if they are holding IB for tank busters as well.

[Taint]

People love to forget the parry increase WAR got. They basically got a shield when needed. (once block rate/Str goes up it won't be close but for now its close enough) They also have infuriate for every other tank buster using your 30 second scenario. But I don't recall a 30 second tank buster since Twintania, most fit in perfectly with Infuriate, 1+ min spreads.

HG is PLDs only advantage over WAR. If anything DRK is in the worst spot for physical mitigation by a long ways.

[Kaslo]

Not to be that guy and also re-raise stuff from like 40 posts ago but PLD not being weak, and PLD needing adjustments are not mutually exclusive. Just saying.

[Carth]

That's irrelevant because PLD is weak.

[Kaslo]

That's irrelevant because PLD is weak.

I'm not going to argue against that in the current raid environment that shits on Physical Defense. But if we had turns that actually required physical defense and slightly less tank DPS it would be different. As it is now, the only real acceptable turn for a PLD in current Savage is A2S.

[Taint]

I'm not going to argue against that in the current raid environment that shits on Physical Defense. But if we had turns that actually required physical defense and slightly less tank DPS it would be different. As it is now, the only real acceptable turn for a PLD in current Savage is A2S.

PLD is shit in A2S. I can't figure out for the life of me why people keep saying that's PLDs turn. Is the damage physical yes, but killing the groups must faster with WAR/DRK reduces a shit ton more damage then PLDs ever will. Also the mobs are standing still stunned 50% of the time.

If anything A3S is the best fight for PLD since you can sheltron the cleaves, but the tethers massively favor DRK and DPS once again makes everything easier.

DPS will always be a form of damage avoidance. Skip a death sentence, skip a flatten etc all lead to less healing, less CD use and overall reduce damage way more than PLD ever will make up.

If the raids go physical heavy then we will just see WARx2 groups since WAR handles damage almost as well but puts out way more dps.

[Kaslo]

Note, I said acceptable.

[Obsidian]

It is not significantly better at mitigating physical damage than WAR or DRK. A Kite shield is roughly 6% average mitigation in PLD's favour (using 2.5 block values, which is being generous), but that's not considering the Parry depreciation that shield blocks cause or WAR's Parry increase which will shorten the gap. WAR has an (effectively) on demand tool to mitigate damage just like PLD (Sheltron/Inner Beast). DRK effectively has the same cooldowns minus Sheltron. PLD is objectively worse at magic damage mitigation. A PLD with no WAR or DRK present will be taking 10% more damage to begin with due to the lack of Reprisal/Storm's Path.

The absence of physical damage in Alexander is largely irrelevant to PLD's current predicament. It's a fundamental flaw in SE's design philosophy that has led us to where we are now. (The flaw being that they're unwilling to make PLD significantly better at defense, both magical and physical.)

[Taint]

Note, I said acceptable.

Yeah I saw that but I still think A2S is the worst turn for PLD. Knife in a gun fight scenario. (no AoE in an AoE encounter)

3.1 being pushed back really hurts PLD. That's SEs chance to fix/tweak/anything the job and now there is a longer gap of terribleness.

[Lokus]

Now that I think about it, it's very ironic that one of the reasons Yoshi-P gave for the early clears of AS3 was because players took a chance and tried out DRK. Almost as if he was admitting that clearing with a PLD was harder and thus the job "weaker"...

[Black]

are you trying to say he intended to do that?!? how dare yo shan!

[MrSamuels]

The only thing Paladin helps with in A2S is having Hallowed for Wave 9, which may have been helpful week 1/2 but with gear now it makes zero fucking difference. We switched from Paladin/Warrior to Dark Knight and had felt zero difference in the fight damage wise and killed it about 45 seconds quicker than our previous kills.

[Carth]

I'm not going to argue against that in the current raid environment that shits on Physical Defense. But if we had turns that actually required physical defense and slightly less tank DPS it would be different. As it is now, the only real acceptable turn for a PLD in current Savage is A2S.

Double WAR would shit over anything related to PLD because PLD's advantages are not strong enough to balance out WAR's massive dps advantage. The only thing that would change is people would be bitching about DRK being weak too.

People often miss the point of how balance works. Saying that you can possibly clear something with a lacking job doesn't mean anything, because you're still using a job that is strictly inferior to other jobs that can perform the same role and do it at a much higher efficiency.

Nothing will be 100% balanced, especially now that we have three tanks. There will always be a third place, but when that third place brings no real advantages to the fight that's when you have a balance issue.

[Lokus]

The only thing Paladin helps with in A2S is having Hallowed for Wave 9, which may have been helpful week 1/2 but with gear now it makes zero fucking difference. We switched from Paladin/Warrior to Dark Knight and had felt zero difference in the fight damage wise and killed it about 45 seconds quicker than our previous kills.

HG is only really useful if you do wave 9 a specific way (which more or less is done that way to take advantage of HG) otherwise it's whatever since there are other ways to do that wave that are better or worse. The whole gear thing making a difference though, it's funny to see it being used in PLDs defense when needing to gear up to keep up with the other tanks is one of the main negatives used against it.

[Lyall]

I'm reminded of Paladin right after Mists of Pandaria dropped. The top theorycrafters on the job told Blizzard for months leading up to launch and weeks after that Protection damage/threat weren't up to snuff compared to the other tanks, and mods kept telling the community that they were wrong, that the WoW internal metrics said differently, and that paladin was fine.

Next hotfix, paladin's damage/threat got tuned up, including one ability being buffed by 900%.

[Cursed]

Its hard to understand how a job as basic and meatless as PLD can be misunderstood. Its very easy to gauge the job's effectiveness. Its the easiest of the 3 tanks to play at entry/mid level (*note, being an exceptional PLD is not easy or easier than being an exceptional war- timing and knowledge of your group's dynamics is important, and for that reason and with what PLD has as tools, I would even say it is harder to play PLD to its full potential than WAR).
But point stands SE doesn't need to dig deep or long to see that the job REALLY is at about 60-65% of where it should be.
Clemency needs to cost less MP and cast at least 100% faster.
Shield swipe needs to work on content that matters. If pacification is too great a debuff to add to an ability on bosses, DONT BLOODY ADD IT. SE you trolling bastards!
Flash sucks.

[Churchill]

Well this game is already vanilla as fuck because CC doesn't work on literally anything. I don't see them ever making CC a part of any strategy.

[Obsidian]

Then why have it on the skill in the first place? Further, why attach something that builds resistance on every use to a skill meant to be used frequently?

[Churchill]

Why are you asking me, lol.

I've played 3 games in recent history that allow you to CC things.

FFXIV 1.0 - CC was utilized on nearly every boss or dungeon and counter CC was also important. There was even a system of coordinating skills to break parts off of a boss that locked his abilities!!!

Neverwinter - Everything could be CC'd and it was glorious. Your imagination was the limit as to how you could utilize CC to beat a dungeon.

Wildstar - CC is an inherit part of the game and its strategies. You are rewarded for proper use of CC, and many mechanics/challenges in the game are based on proper use of CC.

[Cursed]

wtf is CC?