Paladin 3.0 - Now with +1 Button

[Kipling]

Crowd Control - debuffing a mob by stunning it, silencing, slow, bind/root, etc.

[Cursed]

oh.. In my head I could only think "clothcraft" and "credit card".
and PLD at a huge disadvantage there as well.

[Niiro]

Uh....no tank has any kind of real CC so no idea what you're talking about.

If anything PLD has the "best" CC with Shield Bash for things that can actually be stunned, but that's not saying much.

[Cursed]

what has to happen to effective control a crowd?

On large number of targets:
-get hate
-keep hate
-survive

[solracht]

jesus fucking christ

[Obsidian]

Uh....no tank has any kind of real CC so no idea what you're talking about.

If anything PLD has the "best" CC with Shield Bash for things that can actually be stunned, but that's not saying much.

Arguably the worst because Shield Bash is on the GCD and breaks combos, meaning you need to kill your own DPS (and your TP) to stun. How often does something need to be stunned more than once every 20 seconds? Not often.

[Niiro]

what has to happen to effective control a crowd?

Crowd Control - debuffing a mob by stunning it, silencing, slow, bind/root, etc.

[Niiro]

Arguably the worst because Shield Bash is on the GCD and breaks combos, meaning you need to kill your own DPS (and your TP) to stun. How often does something need to be stunned more than once every 20 seconds? Not often.

If you want rank them based on CC, PLD has the best options, they have the longest duration stun and can spam it.

If you want to judge them on most useful skills that's an entirely different thing that I really don't think needs discussing at this point.

[Cursed]

I always just thought of crowd control as something done to trash mobs that you didn't need to kill to clear something like dynamis/einherjar/salvage etc. As in keeping them off whoever was dealing with the boss/or relative mechanics for clear/win.
didn't know CC meant debuffing large amounts of mobs but you learn something new every day.

[TheDirtyHobo]

I don't see them ever making CC a part of any strategy.

Have you even played this patch?

I always just thought of crowd control as something done to trash mobs that you didn't need to kill to clear something like dynamis/einherjar/salvage etc. As in keeping them off whoever was dealing with the boss/or relative mechanics for clear/win.

That's because that's what the term actually is, it has just been bastardized to mean any disable. Controlling the crowd, i.e. all the shit that isn't the boss itself.

[gaira]

pretty sure we can thank ffxi's stun, to some degree, for that. when in doubt facing any new boss, just stunlock it and zerg!

[Kipling]

The term is just a general term. Crowd Control in the early usage of the term could refer more literally to things like sleeping a large pack of mobs in Dynamis or some other raid, but it's just a broad term of art used for status debuffs now that's also used in MOBAs to denote similar things like knock ups and disables.

CC makes fights interesting by letting people bring specific comps that might be more viable because of their kits CC, but I think the devs are also afraid of making all CC viable on bosses because certain comps would obviously be way better than others just based on how badly they could fuck with the boss. If you could silence every single spell a boss does PLD all of a sudden becomes fantastic, and double BRD or BRD + MCH could be the new thing in magic fights that actually have a cast bar.

I think things like allowing PLD's flash to actually blind the mob is a similar purpose. Once you have done a certain fight enough, you can innately feel when a non-cast bar tank buster may be coming. If you were savvy enough, you could flash the mob and give it a chance to miss a buster. With attacks like the cleave in A3S that's huge. We actually saw something similar in Titan. I'm not sure if it ever got patched, but you used to be able to blind him and there was a chance he'd miss Mountain Buster completely. It was pretty awesome to just miss a whole buster like that as long as your SMN didn't spam Ruin 2 to DR him. I personally think they're trying to avoid things like that because with the theme of non-cast bar tank busters this tier they are trying to introduce a level of difficulty that stems from memorizing and understanding a bosses pattern in a way that moves like "flatten" in t13 didn't have (because it had a huge cast bar and you could pop CDs in reaction to it, rather than needing to do it in anticipation).

[Carth]

That's because that's what the term actually is, it has just been bastardized to mean any disable. Controlling the crowd, i.e. all the shit that isn't the boss itself.

To be honest that's the first time I've seen the term used specifically for debuffs. I would figure if you're using crowd control, you're controlling a crowd by any means, whether by sleeping them, or tanking them away from a primary target, like tanking adds away from Faust when that was a thing.

Calling Shield Bash/Shield Swipe as "CC" seems weird to me because ideally both of those tools are also utilized for bosses too.

[Churchill]

Have you even played this patch?

I'm not good at FFXIV because my APM is only 10.

Sleep
Stun
Bind
Pacification
Silence
Heavy
Blind

T1 - Could Silence ADS, could Bind slimes?
T2 - Could Silence ADS
T4 - Could probably Stun/Bind, wasn't a huge part of any strategy just due to initial DPS/HPS checks
T5 - Could Stun Snakes and Birds, could Heavy birds (Needed SMN for reliable use, WHM/SCH acc lol)
T6 - Unsure, wasn't a part of initial DPS strategy
T7 - Could Bind Renauds, psure you could Heavy them too (Same as T5)
T8 - Don't remember any CC working
T9 - Could Silence adds phase, but gl with that
T10 - Don't remember using any CC as strategy
T11 - Same
T12 - Could Stun the adds I think, don't really remember, wasn't really a big deal * actually psure you couldn't stun but it would have been huge cause they hit hard as fuck
T13 - Could Stun the adds I think, don't really remember, wasn't really a big deal

**Note, it's been a really long time, I might have missed something.

None of those are Bahamut, Phoenix, Cadaceus, Nael, Twin, etc.

So while in some cases you could use CC or had to use CC, the mechanic itself is really "press a button now" which could literally be "Press T to dump the slime bucket and win double dare!!!"

Using CC to beat content, eg keeping blind up on Twintania (and it actually doing something), using pacification each time Death Sentence is close to being up (Even if it just prevented Plummet), sleeping snakes while waiting for divebombs, binding birds, silencing twisters?, etc. Would this make the fight easier? Sure. That sort of thing can be balanced out. I think everyone has a good enough kit in this game to be useful, especially if they kept their CC resilience where you are basically unable to chain stun something.

[TheDirtyHobo]

Using CC to beat content, eg keeping blind up on Twintania (and it actually doing something), using pacification each time Death Sentence is close to being up (Even if it just prevented Plummet), sleeping snakes while waiting for divebombs, binding birds, silencing twisters?, etc. Would this make the fight easier? Sure. That sort of thing can be balanced out. I think everyone has a good enough kit in this game to be useful, especially if they kept their CC resilience where you are basically unable to chain stun something.

So while in some cases you could use CC or had to use CC, the mechanic itself is really "press a button now"

What's the difference besides the name of the thing? Your argument seems to be "it doesn't count that CC is a part of the fights because it's not the way I want it to be."

Making CC apply indiscriminately to bosses is something that sounds good until you actually think about it. It adds so many extra points of failure to bad groups and dumbs down content for good groups. If they end up compensating by throwing in more things to interrupt, that's an even steeper learning curve.

Your BRD forgets to silence a twister? Instant wipe because everyone was expecting it to be dealt with instead of doing the mechanic themselves.
Your MNK accidentally uses a Steel Peak and uses up the last DR on stun? Now your PLD doesn't pop a cooldown on Death Sentence because he means to shield bash it, it gets fully resisted, he gets wrecked.
Your PLD loses count and uses their cooldown on a Death Sentence that gets stunned? Now the cooldown got wasted and you don't have stuff up for the next one.

[layoneil]

Calling Shield Bash/Shield Swipe as "CC" seems weird to me because ideally both of those tools are also utilized for bosses too.

it's totally moronic to call Silencing or Stunning the boss CC, there's no Crowd.

you can use Stun for CC, like Dreadknights in T5 and Leviathan EX but that doesn't mean stunning Ifrit Eruptions is CC.

CC is using Sleep, Bind, Heavy and Stun on adds.

Binding a boss that's does Hundred Fists and using Heavy to Kite the only thing you're fighting are not CC.

[AlastorTGN]

I tried to stun a goons Fire spell in Vault with Spirits Within and it didn't even work, I mean, come on.

[Churchill]

What's the difference besides the name of the thing? Your argument seems to be "it doesn't count that CC is a part of the fights because it's not the way I want it to be."

Making CC apply indiscriminately to bosses is something that sounds good until you actually think about it. It adds so many extra points of failure to bad groups and dumbs down content for good groups. If they end up compensating by throwing in more things to interrupt, that's an even steeper learning curve.

Your BRD forgets to silence a twister? Instant wipe because everyone was expecting it to be dealt with instead of doing the mechanic themselves.
Your MNK accidentally uses a Steel Peak and uses up the last DR on stun? Now your PLD doesn't pop a cooldown on Death Sentence because he means to shield bash it, it gets fully resisted, he gets wrecked.
Your PLD loses count and uses their cooldown on a Death Sentence that gets stunned? Now the cooldown got wasted and you don't have stuff up for the next one.

Sort of. If you can boil the effect down to one button press and it's the only thing that works, eg Silence on ADS, then you could replace that skill with a special ability that you have to rotate the use of every 30s. At that point it's less about the "Silence" and more about the interrupt. If all CC worked, then that Silence would be a Silence, as it may not work on some things or there may be more than just that skill that stops the ADS from casting raid wide Paralyze.

As far as the other stuff, I think those would be good facets of the game. If you do PvP on Warrior, you know Storms Eye has a healing debuff - when has that ever been used in PVE? Paladin has some really nice tools for making bosses play differently, and rarely are any of them used outside of the OT role/adds.

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CC terminology discussion > sounds a bit like you're mad someone said 'toon in your final fantasies.

CC is very often used as a catchall.

[Niiro]

I tried to stun a goons Fire spell in Vault with Spirits Within and it didn't even work, I mean, come on.

Mobs in I think most HW dungeons are immune to a lot of stuff for ......some reason.

Like they can't even be slept and shit, because people were totally all about abusing sleep in dungeons amirite?

[Kipling]

Exactly, CC is a catchall. If you haven't played other MMOs aside from FFXI or FFXIV or have never played MOBAs, then I get why you may not have heard it but... It's pretty wide spread. And really, is it something to argue over?