Astrologian Discussion Thread: (Insert Yu-Gi-Oh! joke here)

[Hiryo]

They're probably not going to adjust AST until a few weeks after A4S has been downed. In FCoB when DRG had flaring and obvious issues even just surviving... T13 was cleared on Nov 2nd, and we didn't get the DRG changes until Dec 8-9.

Right on time. Thanks as always Slycer!

We realize that waiting around is a tough situation for players whose main job is astrologian, but we are almost done collecting data, and we need another 1-2 weeks to carefully consider the measures we will take to solve the frustration that players have but also make sure we don't throw off the balance.

[Grey Jorildyn]

The BALANCE! Get it! Like the card guys!

I had a good chuckle. Thanks SE.

[Snoctopus]

Went ahead and grabbed the whole famitsu snippet (didn't see it in here yet):

Will you be adjusting the new jobs as well?
Y: Our biggest focus right now is adjusting Astrologian, which I think is also something players are very interested in.

Please tell us a bit more about how you see the current job balance.
Y: We've been continually looking over our players' feedback, and we made adjustments to the things we believed were the most urgent before the release of patch 3.05. However, in the particular case of Astrologian we felt that it would be too risky to do that without first looking at the job's performance in Alexander (savage). We are currently looking over play logs for Alexander (savage) and reading player feedback as we decide which changes to make.

There have been many requests regarding Astrologian's card system.
Y: I think the players' comments on the random factor are completely on point. However, the Astrologian's cards have the power to increase the party's strength as a whole. If they also had the same heal output as a White Mage or Scholar, then those two jobs would have nothing to offer to match the increase in party power. The two problems we are focusing on are the unreliability of the cards' RNG and Astrologian's lack of healing output compared to the other two jobs, however a single misstep could end up making the job overpowered, which is why this is taking so long. We apologize for making you all wait.

In order to keep things balanced, every time you increase something you have to reduce something else.
Y: Since Astologian can use two different healing stances, there is a risk that double Astrologians could become the optimal party makeup, which is something we absolutely wanted to avoid. If the top players progressing through savage found something we didn't think of, that allowed them to use Astrologian better, while we at the same time balanced it upward, then the job could have become overpowered. It pains us to force Astrologian mains to wait like this, but data collection should be over very soon. We will observe the situation for another 1-2 weeks, and then start carefully addressing players' concerns in a way that doesn't endanger the game's balance.

From https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...nterview_with/

[Ratatapa]

So I havn't played AST in months, but wasn't WHM + AST suppose to be the best combo with the stacking regen?

[Kipling]

I think by the time they actually adjust astro I'll have wep body and something else for my sch so it won't really matter. Guess there's always 3.2? Assuming the changes actually address the problems.

[Snoctopus]

I think by the time they actually adjust astro I'll have wep body and something else for my sch so it won't really matter. Guess there's always 3.2? Assuming the changes actually address the problems.

Yeah, I'm not sure what they'll do. It seems like they didn't want to invalidate one of the other healers with AST, so they made it deliberately not as good.

Right now I think the following issues are still present:

- Nocturnal Sect is inefficient
This is a combination of the lack of crit shields, coupled with the fact that on SCH there is not only adlo, but a fairy "free cure" going along with it. Beyond that, Adlo is simply more powerful based on potency. Because of the potency difference, and the lack of the fairy, you can fall behind pretty quickly in MP and curing vs Diurnal and its regen. Even if Nocturnal AB was changed to mirror Adlo's potency, it still wouldn't be as good, because you'd be missing the fairy potency on top of it.

I have two ideas to fix this:
1) Leave nocturnal sect AB as no-crit shields, but increase its potency to 450. This will bring it more in line with the total healing of the fairy + adlo, but not give the option for totally insane shields on crit.
2) Remove cure potency from AB altogether. Reduce the MP cost. Take it off GCD. Change it to a 250 potency critable, OGCD pure shield. This way you can at least still cast a Benefic 2 and follow it up with an shield if you like.

Also, reduce cooldown on Yshtola bubble while in Noct Sect. We don't have a good answer to sacred soil.

- Cards are too weak
Cards are not strong enough. With the cards having an at-best equal performance to Selene, considering this is a class defining action, that kinda sucks.

There's a pretty easy fix to this, while still keeping some of the RNG fun in there.
1) Change ALL cards to be AOE by default.
2) Removal "Royal Road - Expand". Change the cards into two categories of royal road.

Bole, Ewer, Spear: Extend Duration

Balance, Arrow, Spire: Increase potency


- Not enough emergency cooldowns compared to SCH/WHM

Compared to three lustrates, benediction, and Tetra, AST is lacking in the "oh my god help" department. For this, I'd say just bring the cooldown of ED down to 20-25 seconds. This will bring it more in line with lustrate.

Overall thoughts:

I don't mind having a base lower potency on AST, but I really want the job to be able to be wanted in a party on it's own merit, and right now it just isn't compelling enough. Nocturnal Stance needs a lot of work to be viable right now. With stronger buffs, and a cooldown change on ED, I think Diurnal is fine.

[Kari]

I don't mind having a base lower potency on AST, but I really want the job to be able to be wanted in a party on it's own merit, and right now it just isn't compelling enough. Nocturnal Stance needs a lot of work to be viable right now. With stronger buffs, and a cooldown change on ED, I think Diurnal is fine.

On top of Nocturnal just being absolutely awful, if Astro gets buffed otherwise Diurnal is still REALLY GOOD. 5% speed that is always on is crazy good, considering how much we value Selene's 3%. It takes 0.12 off of my GCD currently. Maybe they could give Noctural a more interesting effect than just 5% healing. My ideal vision of AST is a weaker healer with really good buffs. Even a buffed version of AST shouldn't be easy healing for Savage during progression, but it should be rewarded with cards massively changing combat. (Noticeably increased DPS, etc.)

I pretty much agree with everything you said, I've been wanting AoE cards since...before the job was created. (I assumed all cards would be AoE until I actually got the details.)

[Arthars]

u wanna know how fucking bad AST are?>

drop by my stream every now and then when i do savage turn 3 with static

and then compare it when i go with pugs

my static can never go pass phase 3 and 4, and im on 10% enrage with pugs tells you everything you need to know

problem is not DPS, problem is tanks can never have a smooth run w/o dying

we are all literally eating every skills, every AOE naked. Can never go pass 2nd cascade

AST barrier? non existant lol

4 words to describe an AST:

cant heal, cant shield

they can maybe rep a whm at best in their best day, but even repping a whm with ast is stupid really

[Elcura]

I think the best part about AST so far is how mad it makes you.

[Arthars]

you have no idea how mad i am everyday lol

[Jahaudant]

My original 2.0 statics leader was dragging us down on T5 in a similar way.

The static agreed that he should be replaced. He was. We cleared the next day.

Being leader doesn't entitle you to special treatment if your performance is lacking...

[Shaano]

inb4 he finds your post and kicks you before you can tart a mutiny

[gattsuru]

On top of Nocturnal just being absolutely awful, if Astro gets buffed otherwise Diurnal is still REALLY GOOD. 5% speed that is always on is crazy good, considering how much we value Selene's 3%. It takes 0.12 off of my GCD currently. Maybe they could give Noctural a more interesting effect than just 5% healing.

It probably doesn't help that many heals seem balanced around Nocturnal's 5% HP buff -- I really don't get why Benefic is 20 Potency less than Physick or Cure, outside of maybe giving folk who cross-class Physick an excuse.

[Niiro]

AST's cures have slightly less potency than the WHM/SCH equivalents in exchange for a much lower MP cost.

Their spells are much more efficient in terms of potency/MP.

[Kipling]

Down with AST

[Classikmage]

AST's cures have slightly less potency than the WHM/SCH equivalents in exchange for a much lower MP cost.

Their spells are much more efficient in terms of potency/MP.

I've been noticing this a lot leveling AST mid-40's. I've been able to heal through the craziest of pulls in Stone Vigil and Dzemael Darkhold and barely scratch my MP pool... AST's MP conservation factor is frigging ridiculous. It feels like you can go forever.

Lowest I went was a pull with like 8-9 mobs in Stone Vigil, took me down to about 60%~ so I popped Luminiferous Aether(although I probably didn't have to).

Between Lightspeed > Benefic spam, Essential Dignity, and the occasional Benefic II instacast procs AST has some really nice emergency heals.

I haven't actually even looked into what they get post-50 yet. But they it seems to be off to a good start from my perspective atm.

[Snoctopus]

AST's cures have slightly less potency than the WHM/SCH equivalents in exchange for a much lower MP cost.

Their spells are much more efficient in terms of potency/MP.

AST:

(Including Magic and Mend II Trait)

Diurnal Stance:

Benefic: 494 potency, 354 MP cost
Benefic II: 806 potency, 796 MP Cost
Helios: 377 Potency, 1061 MP Cost
Aspected Benefic: 1027 total potency, 707 MP Cost
Aspected Helios: 832 total potency, 1326 MP Cost

Nocturnal Stance:

Benefic: 518.7 potency, 354 MP cost
Benefic II: 846.3 potency, 796 MP Cost
Helios: 395.85 Potency, 1061 MP Cost
Aspected Benefic: 341.25 total potency + 341.25 shield, 707 MP Cost
Aspected Helios: 191.1 total potency + 191.1 shield, 1326 MP Cost

Diurnal Stance Collective Unconsciousness has a total potency of 1170 and can be used every 90 seconds, however the caster is immobilized and unable to perform any actions. Effect ends on movement or using another action..
Essential Dignity can be used every 40 seconds that will restore 400-1000 potency.
AST has one cooldown that can be used every 120 seconds that will restore mana at a rate of 400 total potency

WHM

(Includes Maim and Mend II Trait)

Cure: 520 potency, 442 MP cost
Cure II: 845 potency, 884 MP cost (**751 MP average when adjusted for freecure procs at a rate of 15%)
Cure III: 715 potency, 1680 MP Cost
Regen: 1365 total potency, 619 MP Cost
Medica: 390 total potency, 1238 MP Cost
Medica II: 910 total potency, 1503 MP cost

Divine Seal can be used every 60 seconds and increases all cure potency by 30%.
Assize can be used every 90 seconds and has a cure potency of 390, and also restores 10% of total MP.
Tetragrammaton can be used every 60 seconds and has a cure potency of 910.
Asylum can be used every 90 seconds and has a total potency of 1040
Benediction can be used every 300 seconds and fully cures the target.
Shroud of Saints can be used every 3 minutes and restores MP at a rate of 400 total potency

MP efficiency: AST vs WHM (Baseline)

Diurnal Benefic (.717 MPP) vs Nocturnal Benefic (.682 MPP) vs Cure (.85 MPP)

Diurnal Benefic II (.988 MPP) vs Nocturnal Benefic II (.941 MPP) vs Cure II (1.046 MPP) vs Cure II adjusted for FreeCure (.889 MPP)

Diurnal Helios (2.814 MPP) vs Nocturnal Helios (2.68 MPP) vs Medica (3.174 MPP)

Diurnal A.Benefic (.688 MPP) vs Nocturnal A.Benefic (1.125 MPP) vs Regen (.453 MPP)

Diurnal A.Helios (1.593 MPP) vs Nocturnal A.Helios (3.469 MPP) vs Medica II (1.652 MPP)

There is no AST equivalent to Cure III

Cooldown Usage

Over the course of 10 minutes utilizing cooldowns, the following amount of curing can be done:

Diurnal AST (Maximum ED Potency, Full CU Uptime): 19,500 (ED) + 9126 (CU) = 28,626
Nocturnal AST (Maximum ED Potency): 20,475 (ED)
WHM: 2,340 (Assize) + 9100 (Tetra) + 6240 (Asylum) + 4000 (Benediction - Indeterminate Potency - Estimating at 2000) = 21,680

Diurnal AST (Average ED Potency @ 700, Assuming Movement after CU): 13,650 (ED) + 3510 (3 Ticks of CU) = 17160
Nocturnal AST (Average ED Potency @ 700): 14,332.5
WHM: 2,340 (Assize) + 9100 (Tetra) + 6240 (Asylum) + 4000 (Benediction - Indeterminate Potency - Estimating at 2000) = 21,680

Diurnal AST (Minimum ED potency @ 400, immediate movement after CU): 7,800 (ED) + 1170 (1 tick of CU) = 8970
Nocturnal AST (Minimum ED potency @ 400): 8190
WHM: 2,340 (Assize) + 9100 (Tetra) + 6240 (Asylum) + 4000 (Benediction - Indeterminate Potency - Estimating at 2000) = 21,680

*Asylum not adjusted due to it being a placeable AoE
**Cooldown Calculation assumes only hitting one target. Assuming full party, multiply CU potencies for AST by 8, and Assize and Asylum potencies for WHM by 8.

MP Regeneration

Over the course of 10 minutes:

AST: 2000 total MP refresh
WHM: 1200 total MP refresh + 60% of total MP pool (Assize)

*Assize would likely pull ahead based on MP pool size.

Other:

Virus: WHM can reduce a target's outgoing damage for 15% once every 90 seconds for multiple attacks.
Disable: AST can reduce the outgoing damage of a single attack by 10% once every 60 seconds.

Bole: AST has a 12.5% chance on a 30 second cooldown to reduce the damage taken by a single target by 10% for 15 seconds.
Eye for an Eye: 20% chance a 180 second cooldown to reduce the incoming damage taken by a single target by 10% for 20 seconds, can be procced by multi-hits or multiple incoming sources of damage. Refreshes on proc.

Divine Seal: Increases cure potency by 30% for 15 seconds - I did not factor this into my equations, but this equates to an overall 7.5% potency increase for whm heals. This would likely place WHM above AST in all situations for MP efficiency. Not smart enough to math it out.

Thoughts:

The raw potencies of the cures and abilities themselves, at least in Diurnal Sect, are fine. AST generally doesn't have huge problems healing through auto-attacks or the like, but the problem is that due to the potency difference it is possible for AST to start to fall behind and be forced to start using more inefficient heals sooner than WHM will, or will be forced to use cooldowns earlier.

When the shit really hits the fan, both WHM and SCH have multiple panic buttons that can be pressed to resolve the issue. AST has one, and only one. Free cure really blows Enhanced Benefic II clear the fuck out of the water, too.

Regen are both flat out BETTER than AST's A.Bene, and there's a sizable potency difference as well as a huge tilt in MP efficiency towards WHM. When factoring in casts that WHM doesn't have to make over the duration of a fight due to superior cooldowns, as well as what I believe to be better MP regeneration abilities, WHM's lead will only get larger.

In a vacuum CO is better than Asylum, but in actuality it's not. WHM can still move after placing Asylum without losing the effect, AST can't.

I'm not even going to run the comparison numbers for SCH because that job is so far ahead in MP management it's not even funny.

[Taim Meich]

Very nice analysis, quite insightful. You forgot Light Speed's new MP cost reduction, though. It's only basically 4 gcd of 75% MP cost on cures every 150 seconds, so it's not much, but everything counts. I'd try to math it out but I'm tired and it really doesn't change the outcome that much.

[Kiarax]

Cure II: 845 potency, 884 MP cost (**751 MP average when adjusted for freecure procs at a rate of 15%)

That is not how Freecure works at all. Freecure saves a metric fuckton of MP over the course of a fight because you're not sat there casting an equal amount of Cure 1 and Cure 2s, you're spamming Cure 1 and using Freecure procs to cast Cure 2 for free almost every time, you only cast Cure 2 when you fall behind on healing (usually Divine Seal solves this though if you're not using it on a specific phase of a fight) or if you're cure sniping a tank buster. WHM blows Astro out the water in terms of MP management and recovery, AST needs a fucking ton of help in this aspect, even tossing Ewer and Spear on yourself to use your MP recovery/reducing abilities more frequently doesn't even come close to the level of recovery WHM or SCH has.

[Kipling]

Free Cure is literally the best thing WHM has for endurance fights, it's fucking amazing for solo healing two tanks while your SCH is DPSing.