Astrologian Discussion Thread: (Insert Yu-Gi-Oh! joke here)

[Kipling]

Mana regeneration is still weak and was basically left untouched by these changes. (inb4 CO cooldown is that huge, spoiler: it's not that big of a deal. Most ASTs were already syncing it to extend). Ewer still restores a piddly amount, if you get one, and pales in comparison to what is restored by energy drains or assize. AST also requires a SCH healing partner in raid content that is not A1S or A2S (since we outgear those now), and the point of the sects is greatly diminished because of it. Nocturnal sect may as well not exist if you bring AST to raid because you should be going with a SCH partner to A3S/A4S.

The changes are nice, but not actually addressing the core problem with AST which still exists. Competent AST's were not concerned with potency values on heals as their biggest weakness. These fixes were literally for people who pug content and don't do progression raiding (While that is most of the playerbase, it doesn't mean the problems magically don't exist for those that do raid with the class). AST runs into severe mana issues when trying to DPS and heal. Pubbies don't DPS, and they barely heal as is. These changes were to address those crying because someone who takes reddit a little too seriously told them they weren't allowed to join their A1 Normal PF because "I heard AST sucks."

Card buffs are nice, but balance being extended doesn't really matter if you never draw one.

[DeadlyWaltz]

Mana regeneration is still weak and was basically left untouched by these changes. (inb4 CO cooldown is that huge, spoiler: it's not that big of a deal. Most ASTs were already syncing it to extend). Ewer still restores a piddly amount, if you get one, and pales in comparison to what is restored by energy drains or assize. AST also requires a SCH healing partner in raid content that is not A1S or A2S (since we outgear those now), and the point of the sects is greatly diminished because of it. Nocturnal sect may as well not exist if you bring AST to raid because you should be going with a SCH partner to A3S/A4S.

The changes are nice, but not actually addressing the core problem with AST which still exists. Competent AST's were not concerned with potency values on heals as their biggest weakness. These fixes were literally for people who pug content and don't do progression raiding (While that is most of the playerbase, it doesn't mean the problems magically don't exist for those that do raid with the class). AST runs into severe mana issues when trying to DPS and heal. Pubbies don't DPS, and they barely heal as is. These changes were to address those crying because someone who takes reddit a little too seriously told them they weren't allowed to join their A1 Normal PF because "I heard AST sucks."

Card buffs are nice, but balance being extended doesn't really matter if you never draw one.

Reddit is just 4Chan Reborn.

[Elcura]

Mana regeneration is still weak and was basically left untouched by these changes. (inb4 CO cooldown is that huge, spoiler: it's not that big of a deal. Most ASTs were already syncing it to extend). Ewer still restores a piddly amount, if you get one, and pales in comparison to what is restored by energy drains or assize. AST also requires a SCH healing partner in raid content that is not A1S or A2S (since we outgear those now), and the point of the sects is greatly diminished because of it. Nocturnal sect may as well not exist if you bring AST to raid because you should be going with a SCH partner to A3S/A4S.

The changes are nice, but not actually addressing the core problem with AST which still exists. Competent AST's were not concerned with potency values on heals as their biggest weakness. These fixes were literally for people who pug content and don't do progression raiding (While that is most of the playerbase, it doesn't mean the problems magically don't exist for those that do raid with the class). AST runs into severe mana issues when trying to DPS and heal. Pubbies don't DPS, and they barely heal as is. These changes were to address those crying because someone who takes reddit a little too seriously told them they weren't allowed to join their A1 Normal PF because "I heard AST sucks."

Card buffs are nice, but balance being extended doesn't really matter if you never draw one.

Problem is you expect AST to go full retard on their own DPS while ignoring what their cards can do, and I can promise you that isn't how AST was intended. And since no one really knows the value of cards and how it applies to DPS people assume AST is weak in MP/DPS (related areas). If you rely on AST DPS itself you're going to run into MP problems because SE never really intended for AST's personal DPS to be that high.

So problem 1) AST has MP problems when trying to go full tilt on DPS (because face it, running out of MP otherwise is very difficult unless people die a lot).

That's not exactly huge, you aren't even slightly relying on ASTs core mechanic or thinking how it adds to overall DPS, so this naturally seems weak. AST has MP troubles when trying to DPS, solution is to DPS less and let cards do more lifting. But since this shit isn't straight forward apparently no one gives a fuck. OK.

Problem 2) SCH is too unique, AST can't cover what SCH can.

You say Nocturnal Sect is weak because you should be going with SCH, but you kind of ignored Noct Sects problem which is you can't stack shields with a SCH like you can stack regens with a WHM. Nocturnal Stance is strong but you never really get to experience it because if you're with a SCH you automatically Diurnal because stacking isn't possible. You're supposed to cover the WHM's portion but you can't cover the SCH's portion due to fairy. In terms of shielding AST isn't that far behind but does lack the tricks to do it comfortably. CU/AoE Bole seems rigid, but I think the biggest factor is DPS.

As far as I can tell these are the "core issues" for AST. MP troubles brought on by full tilt DPS (without regards to cards) and SCH being OP.

Is AST+WHM an inferior combo because you literally just need the DPS from SCH to clear? I'm not sure what else could be so inferior in A3/4 from an AST perspective unless it's DPS related.

And on the flipside, Balance doesn't matter if you never draw one...but we all know RNG ain't work like that.

[Kipling]

Look, if nocturnal stacked with galvanize we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. Niggas would be shielding shit all day and no one would ever die again.

BUT DREAMS OFTEN DON'T COME TRUE.

Edit: And yeah I say WHM/AST is weak because right now you need one of the healers DPSing to clear A3/A4 or even have a chance. The WHM is too dependent on accuracy and AST has guaranteed dots landing with combust 1/2, which would make them the better choice to do it, if their mana wasn't terrible.

[agrotc]

Out of curiosity, has anyone done any tests to determine if the chance to draw a given card is the same for all six?
It probably is, but knowing SE...

[Mira]

With a cooldown so low it kind of defeats the purpose (healing and damage being mutually exclusive) and just makes healer DPSing feel pointlessly clunky.

...........which is why the better option to just not have them rely on a stance and balance their default damage accordingly.

Idk why they just didn't make healer nukes scale with mnd. If cleric stance wasn't there, i'd enjoy nuking on healers waaay more

[DeadlyWaltz]

Idk why they just didn't make healer nukes scale with mnd. If cleric stance wasn't there, i'd enjoy nuking on healers waaay more

They could've done away with Cleric Stance, yeah, but I assume they wanted effort put into the game. Not just pushing a few buttons and facerolling content. I also believe it was dumb they disabled Cleric Stance in PvP but that's another topic for another thread.

[Kaixin]

I'm bored, let's work on a model for DPS effect of Astrologian cards.

For the first model, assume: Spread and Shuffle aren't used. DPS has 100% uptime on boss. Even though I suspect Arrow has a good or better effect on DPS (why would GL increase damage dealt by 10% but attack speed by only 5% if attack speed weren't worth more?), you only ever use Balance, and Royal Road every other card in hopes to affect Balance.

X = DPS output of 1 DD.

Let's start with what happens if you draw Balance. 1/6 chance to pull Balance, +10% DPS from your DD. Expected value from Balance in simplest case scenario s: EV(Balance) = 1/6(.1)(X).

Bole->RR->Balance has a 1/36 probability of +7.5% DPS (+15% boost for 30 seconds, but requiring 2 card pulls). EV(Bole) = 1/36(.075)(X).

Arrow/Spear->RR->Balance has 1/18 probability of occurring. It's an equal effect as having pulled two balance cards over two periods. +10% DPS. EV(Arrow + Spear) = 1/18(.1)(X).

Ewer/Spire->RR->Balance has a 1/18 probability. Let's assume the AOE effect reaches all 4 DPS, who do the same damage. That's +10% DPS. (+5% boost for 4 people, but requiring 2 card pulls). EV(Ewer + Spire) = 1/18(.1)(X).

So in the scenario where you only use Balance, Royal Road every other card you draw, never Shuffle, and never Spread, you get:
(1/6(.1) + 1/36(.075) + 1/18(.1) + 1/18(.1))X or ~.03X, plug in for X = however much your DPS does without Balance, and you have a very simple guesstimation for how much value you're getting from the cards, focusing on DPS only. With a lot of assumptions. Let me think about how to model Shuffle/Spread...

[TheDirtyHobo]

Minimum effect is obviously 0. All Bole/Ewers.

And maximum is 2.5% increase (AoE balance hitting everyone every 2nd card, 5% potency 50% uptime) to raid DPS. That's ~150 for a group with ~6k. So in actuality it probably falls in the 50-100 DPS range, depending on luck that run. Calculating more in-depth than that seems like a waste of time to nail down something entirely luck-based.

[Kaixin]

Brain flexing is never a waste of time.

Assuming the best use of Spread is to always have a backup Balance ready to use for Royal Roaded !Balance cards after failing a Shuffle.

Assuming the best use of Shuffle is a chance at getting Balance every time you get a !Balance card.

So for optimal +DPS, you want to follow:
If you have no Balance in Spread and draw a Balance, put it in Spread. Otherwise, use the Balance card.
Royal Road !Balance cards.
Use Shuffle whenever you can to try to get Balance card.
Burn your Spread Balance if you already have Royal Road and already used Shuffle and didn't get a Balance.

The overall goal is to maximize the Balance cards you do draw, at the expense of wasting !Balance cards if drawn multiple times in a row.

Questions:
1) Which Royal Road effect is best, and do you want to prioritize them, ie always overwrite Bole Royal Roads with other Royal Roads, never the opposite?
2) Is Arrow worth less, the same, or more than Balance?
3) If you have a Spread Arrow/Balance and draw an Arrow/Balance, is it better to use both cards separately or apply Royal Road to the Spread card?

[Snoctopus]

So, basically...

"Balance is best, road the rest".

I can live with that. That's how I've been going at it mostly anyways. If spread is up I'll always store balance. I rarely store anything else. Trying to get the most out of each balance is what I aim for.

[Kaixin]

Thinking about it more, if you draw a !Balance card and you can either Shuffle or RR it, I believe you should Shuffle before Roading, this gives the most opportunities to draw Balance cards over the long run. But...Arrow/Spear enhanced Balances are worth 2 normal ones...so if you shuffle an Arrow to get a Balance, then draw a Balance, you've wasted that shuffle...hmm...and Ewer/Spire enhanced Balance could be worth more depending on stacking...this is hard to think about.

[DeadlyWaltz]

I find Bole to be pretty useful. Throw up a Shield on a Tank. Use Bole. 10% Less damage against the shield for higher uptime on it. There are small things you can do with some of the cards anyways that make them fun. Usually if I get Ewer I stash it away and pop it with Lumi. I still don't understand why Spear is useful. Spire recently became useful with being able to see TP Bars. Arrow. No Brainer. Faster DPS = More combo uptime and more damage throughput.

[Elcura]

I still don't understand why Spear is useful

Because you can use abilities faster? If no one else, you should be using it on yourself before popping your CDs. SMNs with 1/no Aetherflow stacks etc.

[Kaixin]

Spear on a dragoon and he has 15s to use battle litany and get 36s knocked off the cooldown. Important to think about

[Niiro]

15s to use an ability with a 180s cooldown.....not the best odds.

Even then you generally save something like Litany for certain parts of a fight.

[Enygma55]

It will definitely be hard, if not impossible, to quantify the full influence an AST has on a party. Stacking cards on certain parts of fights is pretty key in a lot of progression as there are strong DPS checks in multiple parts. A1S before the split, A3S double hands of pain to name a few.

[Tarli]

2) Is Arrow worth less, the same, or more than Balance?

Arrow is worth less than Balance as far as using it directly. If I'm being generous, it's worth about 7% DPS boost on a NIN, iirc. That said, I don't think it's worth shuffling Arrow to fish for Balance. You have a 67% chance of coming back with a shitty card, 16% chance of no change, and only 16% chance to gain what's realistically 4-5% DPS.

[Fiye]

Balance and Arrow: Use it, prefferably buffed.
Spear: I'll only use if I'm on TS with someone
Ewer + Spire: RR or use if necessary
Bole: RR unless the stars align and there's a big hit coming up that I might as well use it for.

The habit I've gotten myself into is that I always spread Balance and Arrow and save it for a buff. There's no reason not to when you can either end up with a party buff (+5% for the entire team), potency buff (+150%? Or is it 1.5x? Fuck if I know anymore) or time buff (2x duration). In most cases its a win. Remember its oGCD so you can spam it inbetween your junk.

In regards to blasting through MP. I still Malefic on my cast bar. If I know a boss will last greater than 2 minutes I'm swapping Malefic 2 with malefic 1.

[Hiryo]

Echoing Spear's usefulness on SMN. Prepull with summoners you are reducing aetherflow to 42 seconds after they do the whole PPF->dreadstance->aetherflow or whatever the opener is. On DRG, not only does it reduce the jump recast which are at least 4 gcd into their opener, it also reduces the 4 buffs used prior: IR->B4B/Litany->Power Surge->BotD. The opener is where the most cooldowns get spent on DRG. During combat I only really give spear to DRG's or SMN's. I thought ninja would have great use for spear but I dont think the timing is right with the ninjitsu.

Edit: Actually, how can you quantify cards like Spear and Spire in terms of dps increase. For spire, is it basically calculating the forgone paeon or is it better to look at the number of AoE attacks that could be used instead? For spear, how does activating (at minimum) raging strikes sooner effect dps calculation?