Machinist - New Headless Running DPS

[Spider-Dan]

source?

It was during the 14-hour broadcast. They haven't posted the official summary yet, though.

at an absurd point of skillspeed (certainly not 2.41) or under rapidfire for more than 1 gcd, your GCD outpaces your auto attack rate, lowering the value of your autos, which is why theres magic numbers for where stance dancing becomes 99% moot (the 1% being movement and gauss toggling if you have literally nothing else to do). 2.41 is certainly not that number, because with an eso wep for example, your autos still keep on pace with your GCD in a very close to 1:1 ratio at that skill speed, whereas at 1.5 or 1.69 or whatever, this obviously isnt the case

Yes, this is what I've been saying for the last page and a half. However, Judai keeps insisting that he has a Secret Solution as to why 2.41 actually matters, so maybe if someone else besides me asks, he'll share it. I think it was just that he didn't know the actual potency of proc'd Slug/Clean; if you (incorrectly) believe that proc's Slug/Clean deal 280/300 damage, then you would turn on GB on any proc, I guess?

Honestly, it looks to me that citing 2.41s was a very weird and irrelevant number, unless Hax was referring to Reassembled Clean Shot meeting that potency but that makes no sense.

If you're maintaining your rotation properly, Reassemble always comes up right after Reload, so you'll always have ammo. I'm not sure why Hax even mentioned crits, as (outside of Reassemble) AAs are just as likely to crit as a GCD attack.

Seems to me you should be stance dancing under every circumstance.

You obviously should have GB on if you have oGCDs available (or if you're using Lead Shot, Niiro), but I'm not sure if Hax's document actually indicates that you should leave GB off even when QR comes up. Intuitively I feel like you should have GB up for any ammo, but the math seems to say that ammo alone doesn't cut it and I can't explain why it's wrong.

To put this in clear terms: Hax's document says that if you could use Cleaner Shot with ammo (220 potency) every GCD, you STILL shouldn't turn GB on until your GCD is below 2.41.

[TheDirtyHobo]

It's pretty poor clarity to define an arbitrary potency and not specify what skills do/do not meet that potency. As the document is written, I've got

Weaponskill	Potency	Max GCD required	
			No ammo	Ammo
Lead Shot	490	5.292	5.508
Hot Shot	120	1.296	1.512
Split Shot	140	1.512	1.728
Slug Shot	180	1.944	2.16
Clean Shot	200	2.16	2.376

[Spider-Dan]

You shouldn't include Lead Shot on a GCD calculation list because the potency of a DoT does not apply in a way that is relevant to the GB on/off question; you should always have GB on for Lead Shot regardless of what your GCD is.

[TheDirtyHobo]

you should always have GB on for Lead Shot regardless of what your GCD is.

Which is proven by the fact that it shows needing a maximum GCD of over twice what the maximum GCD can be, so I don't see what the point is? It's just for completion's sake.

[Aiurily]

lolol half cd on quick reload

might as well make 5 ammo opener the new standard

[Carth]

QR is now a 15s Recast, but only gives 30 TP. lol.

Pretty much makes it useless for TP recovery, but on the bright side, it's an overall potency increase if you keep QR on cooldown, which I guess is what they're going for.

This also means we can fit two QRs into one Wildfire.

[TheDirtyHobo]

I don't really see how 60 TP every 30seconds is somehow worse TP recovery than 50 TP every 30 seconds.

[Carth]

It was 50 TP every 30 seconds, not 30 TP. Point taken nonetheless.

[TheDirtyHobo]

Err, yeah. Typo. Fixed.

[Aiurily]

turns out that 5 ammo opener is basically cancer (in a dummy setting for what its worth. for a2/a3/a4 its alright prob) because it doesnt let your reload/wildfires line up neatly at all. the best bet if you want to tryhard is to just do the normal opener, starting at 5 ammo and only using two of them, since this lines up reloads/wildfire neatly.

here's my 5 ammo opener if anyone wants to give it a shot

reload->qr->qr->qr->qr

HE BFB HC RS > hotshot (4) > dex pot > leadshot (3) > quick reload > split shot (3) > wildfire > slug shot (2) > gauss round reassemble > clean (1) > rapid ricochet > split (0) > reload > slug (4) > head > split (3) > blank> clean (2) > slug (1) > clean > qr > split (0)

its nice to get QR/GR on cd earlier and exploit 3 more ammo, but it really fucks your reload for your 3rd wildfire unless you get a proc before it which is complete rng ofc

[bori]

Not sure if anyone noticed - but I was affected by this a LOT (especially after taking Gauss Round off after opener):

An issue wherein weaponskills used immediately after removing the bard effect “The Wanderer’s Minuet” or the machinist effect “Gauss Barrel” would have a cast time and become uninterruptable when moving.

[bori]

Does this encourage people to stay in GB longer? Seems as if have QR on such a low CD kind of encourages it.

[Carth]

Not really. GB's power was never really with the bullets but rather Lead Shot + the oGCD attacks being buffed, especially the ones that are locked behind it. Even if we had unlimited bullets, using Auto Attacks would still be better without the oGCDs.

[Spider-Dan]

[edit: nvm, misunderstood quoted post]

[Michaera]

So after rereading the last few pages, what's the consensus on stance dancing? GB on only when applying lead shot, ammo is up (??), during Rapid Fire/WF burst mode, or Gauss Round/Ricochet are up?

Edit: I guess I'm actually still not clear on ammo. Like Spider-Dan said, feels like you should have GB on while you have ammo up (intuitively)

[Carth]

So after rereading the last few pages, what's the consensus on stance dancing? GB on only when applying lead shot, ammo is up (??), during Rapid Fire/WF burst mode, or Gauss Round/Ricochet are up?

Edit: I guess I'm actually still not clear on ammo. Like Spider-Dan said, feels like you should have GB on while you have ammo up (intuitively)

Even if you have ammo up, Auto attacks are still a dps increase when no oGCDs are available.

If lead shot is up, and you have no oGCDs available, Gauss Barrel should be off. The only exception is when you have Reassembled Clean Shot ready.

[Carth]

I need some advice.

I've been practicing trying to keep my DPS high while handling mechanics, but on BisEx I keep getting stomped. Since I have to save my CDs for Bismark, my dps is pretty low when taking out adds and when it's time to jump on the whale's back, I can't use wildfire since you have less than 15 seconds to get everything stacked up on him. I try saving Wildfire for the snakes instead, but by that point my cooldowns are all out and it's just a mess trying to get my burst rotation back on track.

Not being able to do the standard wildfire rotation is really killing me. Is Bismark just an outlier in this case?

[Aiurily]

bismarck is just sort of lame because of the short contact period and how much time you need to get a wildfire burst going. it's an outlier really

[Raldo]

Stupid question:

Mock-ee-nist (like "Deus Ex Machina"), or Machine-ist (like the word "Machine")? I assume Yoshi-P and co. said the name aloud at some point, and I'm curious what they go with. I keep flip-flopping on the way I say it.

[Niiro]

Machinist isn't a made-up word, it's pronounced like machine.

How Yoshi pronounces it is kind of.....I wouldn't say irrelevant but there's no way to pronounce machinist properly in Japanese so I'm sure he'd say it differently anyway, but I don't see why you'd take a Japanicized version of an English word and then use the Japanese (mis)pronunciation when saying it in English.