Alexander Discussion, Round 2: Wait is this the easy mode thread?

[Aiurily]

28s faster kill time with saccing+ignoring straf dolls entirely and eating whirbelwind lol

time to start shamelessly cheesing nisi instead of dealing with a mechanic that requires coordination+intense healing :^)

[Yugl]

Chyea the night before release: "I'm worried people will think we cheesed it when they see Lucrezia do Nisi for all three pentacles" LOL

[Lokus]

I'm sure if it was the other way around, the GW thread about this would have some serious hypocripsy rearing it's head. Either way, it's an easy fix for SE if they decide to do something about it.

[Kaisha]

I'd have figured having three weakened multiple times (MP stress of raising three vs. juggling Nisi for 5+ minutes is probably about the same?) would have made Lucrezia's method a slower clear though, but it's only a six second difference from Elysium.

[Kipling]

I'm sure if it was the other way around, the GW thread about this would have some serious hypocripsy rearing it's head. Either way, it's an easy fix for SE if they decide to do something about it.

If NA's had right out cheesed and JP's hadn't it would have been: "JP players showing once again why they're better than Westerners".

But because JP's were the ones who did the most cheesing, it will be viewed as acceptable.

FFXI fanboyism dies hard.

[Seravi Edalborez]

I'd have figured having three weakened multiple times (MP stress of raising three vs. juggling Nisi for 5+ minutes is probably about the same?) would have made Lucrezia's method a slower clear though, but it's only a six second difference from Elysium.

Shows NA pigs can't DPS as well as JP overlords.

[Lokus]

If NA's had right out cheesed and JP's hadn't it would have been: "JP players showing once again why they're better than Westerners".

But because JP's were the ones who did the most cheesing, it will be viewed as acceptable.

FFXI fanboyism dies hard.

I don't care either way. People are going to back whichever group (NA/JP) they want and spin facts to make it seem favorable to whatever group they want. I remember BG got a bit of shit for doing the Conflag + Death Sentence thing but it was ultimately squashed when Yoshi called it a calculated risk and that was that.

[Fiye]

It'll be as accepted as the LoS tactic. I used the shit out of that against T6 back in the day since you dealt with less damage.

Cheesing Nisi or managing it brings back its own fallbacks. You deal with 3 people having 30% weakness, the extra MP cost associated with raising people and MP loss from the deaths.

Doing the Nisi mechanc means you have to manage to keep it up. Cure the damage it ticks. But you don't have to deal with the weakness.

Squeenix might see it as an acceptable mechanic because its not making it obviously easier. It might just go the route of 'unseen tactic'.

Either way, Elysium got the first clear, and they handled Nisi mechanically for the first two. The third one they just threw themselves for more damage rather than chancing enrage.

Edit: People always want to bitch about the fights having only one mechanical method. And then when people find a second way to do something within the given mechanics of the game they'll bitch and say its cheesing/unfair and unacceptable.

[lilbubbles]

I don't really think it is cheesing if it results in deaths.

Reminds me of when we used to "cheese" the blue marker in t5 by having the person run into the wall. The good ol days.

[Aiurily]

theres obvious cons to saccing that make it more of an alternate tactic than outright exploit/cheese imo

i mean it could still be a doritos flavor with how cheesy it is, but theres obvious cons to it, unlike t6 los, t12 blackfire bane, etc

[Dammerung]

If it is more economical to sac people to a mechanic than deal with it, it's fucking terrible design. Which about sums up A4S.

[Kipling]

If it is more economical to sac people to a mechanic than deal with it, it's fucking terrible design. Which about sums up A4S.

You said it better.

[Seravi Edalborez]

If it is more economical to sac people to a mechanic than deal with it, it's fucking terrible design. Which about sums up A4S.

This is where stuff like T10 and T12, despite the relative ease of the fights in their raid tier, succeeded pretty well imo. Because sac'ing just led to a snowball of more deaths (10) or a direct punishment (10 sometimes, 12).

[Avarice]

Edit: People always want to bitch about the fights having only one mechanical method. And then when people find a second way to do something within the given mechanics of the game they'll bitch and say its cheesing/unfair and unacceptable.

There's a fine line between finding alternate ways to handle mechanics, and finding alternate ways to skip (read: cheese) mechanics. Using the line of sight in T6, or stacking the renauds in T7, those were still ways that handled the mechanics (not getting eaten and freezing the renauds respectively). Enraging T2, Hallowed Ground/Shielding Final Liberation, running people into Pentacles, those are skipping mechanics.

[StUfF]

I think the only unintended mechanic used is the ability to get two orbs with one life, I doubt saccing would be viable if you had to have 6 deaths per pentacle and it gives you some lee way if you stuff up 1-2 pentacles orbs.

[Kipling]

I think the only unintended mechanic used is the ability to get two orbs with one life, I doubt saccing would be viable if you had to have 6 deaths per pentacle and it gives you some lee way if you stuff up 1-2 pentacles orbs.

No it wouldn't be. That's how you can tell they didn't really test the fight. They just assumed no one would sac 6 people.

[Kaisha]

Maybe it'll be what finally pushes the devs to fix the god damn animation priority on damage dealt/effects used.

[Seravi Edalborez]

They are very inconsistent on that. They clearly have the capability to make the damage from some moves hit a lot sooner than the animation would imply. They just often choose not to.

While we're on the subject Kaishen I know you've talked a lot in the past about how the animation should be tied into the windup/castbar and I figured that was impossible for SE. But there's a mob whose ENTIRE FUCKING GIMMICK is this: Diresaurs. Even in Stone Vigil HM they had (invisible) cast bars during their Monster Hunter animations. It just became shockingly hilarious when you see the open world ones in HW who do have cast bars.

e: The funny part being that even Diresaurs have that disconnect.

[lilbubbles]

When you're new to the game its super frustrating because many mitigation tools are useless until you figure out the disconnect.

[Alistaire]

There's a fine line between finding alternate ways to handle mechanics, and finding alternate ways to skip (read: cheese) mechanics. Using the line of sight in T6, or stacking the renauds in T7, those were still ways that handled the mechanics (not getting eaten and freezing the renauds respectively). Enraging T2, Hallowed Ground/Shielding Final Liberation, running people into Pentacles, those are skipping mechanics.

Didn't SE come out and label the T6 LoS as cheesing it though? Not in those words of course but I recall them saying that was unintended in the same way they worded their reaction to T2 enrage, and that similarly they'd still allow it, but not allow it in savage.