Alexander Discussion, Round 2: Wait is this the easy mode thread?

[Taint]

Other tank is away for 10 days starting today.

brb server transfering

[Kipling]

Savage clear numbers are lower than expected.
They will keep an eye on clear numbers and if needed perform adjustments for Savage on 3.15.
For the next Alexander on 3.2, it'll probably not use the same Normal/Savage division.
Yoshida ideally want to implement Easy/Medium/Savage three- tiered difficulties, but on the other hand they are lacking the staff to implement that much.

Source.

If this is true I guess we'll see nerfs before content is made irrelevant for the first time (aside from Twintania being adjusted cause it was a mess). Sets a bad precedent for the game, IMO. If they nerf Savage Alexander in 3.15 people will expect nerfs from now on before the next raid patch.

I really hope we don't go back to Final Coil tier difficulty just because of all the complaining. Hopefully they still keep the raids as hard as they were this tier.

[Rocl]

Easy Mode 190 gear, no weapons gear not dyable
Normal Mode 205 gear, armor/accessory upgrades, no weapons/weapon upgrade jewelry dyable
Hard Mode 210 gear, weapons and all upgrade items everything dyable

OKAY DO IT YOSHIDA

edited w/ bold for the most important part

[Taint]

Source.

If this is true I guess we'll see nerfs before content is made irrelevant for the first time (aside from Twintania being adjusted cause it was a mess). Sets a bad precedent for the game, IMO. If they nerf Savage Alexander in 3.15 people will expect nerfs from now on before the next raid patch.

I really hope we don't go back to Final Coil tier difficulty just because of all the complaining. Hopefully they still keep the raids as hard as they were this tier.

Its not healthy for the game. Yes its healthy for your competent 8 man raid but A3S is horrible for the game.

Yoshi was correct when he said their should be 3 tiers. Faceroll, Coil and Savage. The A3S fallout is extreme because there is nothing for a large chunk of the playerbase.

Great players with bad raid times
Great players that are loyal to their friends that may only be good
Teams of good players that can quite beat A3S even after 12+ weeks
Raids that lose members and get stuck in the replacement wheel
Good raids with one bad player whom they like

There are lots and lots of reasons why Savage is tuned just a tad too high. If A3S added a full 3rd rotation I bet the clear numbers would be more in line. Tons of groups are stuck on enrage or broke up at enrage. Obviously they can handle the mechanics but they can't do pro DPS and handle the mechanics.

Good players have nothing at all to do in game. Coil was a better endgame for the game. Getting stuck on T9 is worlds different than getting stuck on T8. Good players have zero ways to progress their characters they have been i206 for months, its just not a healthy environment for a game that resets every 6 months.

But yes its perfect for a great group of 8 with similar schedules.

[Kipling]

@Rocl - I think I would be fine with that, but since he stated they don't have the people to do 3 levels of difficulty I worry they will need to "compromise" again.

[solracht]

If they're doing two difficulties, have no doubt Savage is done for.

Reposting my opinion because no point in typing the same thing lol

Whatever they do, I don't see them getting rid of Normal mode because that's aimed at their target audience, and since they're not doing 3 difficulties I'm just expecting the higher one to be easier than current Savage. They even said they expected more people to clear.

As for the 3.15 adjustments: RIP Living Liquid, give regards to Melusine in heaven

[Rocl]

@Rocl - I think I would be fine with that, but since he stated they don't have the people to do 3 levels of difficulty I worry they will need to "compromise" again.

Yeah. The other alternative might be to include more than four bosses and two chests and do something like with a six bosses and FOUR CHESTS PER FLOOR!?:
i200 jewelry F1
i200 armor F2
i210 jewelry F3/jewelry upgrade item
i210 armor F4/armor upgrade item
i200 weapon F5
i210 weapon F6/weapon upgrade item

idk tho, but I feel the huge jump from A2S -> A3S isn't kosher and easing people into that difficulty with more incremental upgrades would be better but I'm not a game dev and am not realistically expecting my suggestion to be taken seriously

hell you could even have more than 1 boss per floor and condense it to 4 areas

[Destinye]

Yeah. If it was more like coil where it may drop accessories AND gear on each floor it probably would have been better..but I know Tank body woulda been locked on final floor again anyway.

[Taint]

Yeah. The other alternative might be to include more than four bosses and two chests and do something like with a six bosses and FOUR CHESTS PER FLOOR!?:
i200 jewelry F1
i200 armor F2
i210 jewelry F3/jewelry upgrade item
i210 armor F4/armor upgrade item
i200 weapon F5
i210 weapon F6/weapon upgrade item

idk tho, but I feel the huge jump from A2S -> A3S isn't kosher and easing people into that difficulty with more incremental upgrades would be better but I'm not a game dev and am not realistically expecting my suggestion to be taken seriously

Yeah I always thought there should be a 5th Raid (6-7 works too)

A1S - Accessories
A2S - Hands Feet waist + accessory upgrade
NEW A3S - Head Legs + Left side upgrade
OLD A3S - Body + Weapon upgrade
OLD A4S - All 3 upgrades plus i215 weapons

[Kaiyoko]

Its not healthy for the game. Yes its healthy for your competent 8 man raid but A3S is horrible for the game.

Yoshi was correct when he said their should be 3 tiers. Faceroll, Coil and Savage. The A3S fallout is extreme because there is nothing for a large chunk of the playerbase.

Great players with bad raid times
Great players that are loyal to their friends that may only be good
Teams of good players that can quite beat A3S even after 12+ weeks
Raids that lose members and get stuck in the replacement wheel
Good raids with one bad player whom they like

There are lots and lots of reasons why Savage is tuned just a tad too high. If A3S added a full 3rd rotation I bet the clear numbers would be more in line. Tons of groups are stuck on enrage or broke up at enrage. Obviously they can handle the mechanics but they can't do pro DPS and handle the mechanics.

Good players have nothing at all to do in game. Coil was a better endgame for the game. Getting stuck on T9 is worlds different than getting stuck on T8. Good players have zero ways to progress their characters they have been i206 for months, its just not a healthy environment for a game that resets every 6 months.

But yes its perfect for a great group of 8 with similar schedules.

I don't disagree that there should be a middle ground for the types of players you listed above, but this game needs some type of more difficult content. Coil wasn't hard enough and Savage Coil wasn't rewarding enough.

I would be happy with getting 1-2 fights every patch ( not every other ) that is extremely difficult. They could do Savage Primals for all I care, but it needs to also reward us with something that isn't just cosmetic. I want something I can put work into that makes it worth while. Getting Savage i210 weapons and the gobwalker was very motivating for me and group to deal with the raise in difficulty. I personally enjoy the hardest content and will go after it regardless of the rewards but I want to be adequately rewarded for doing so as well. I know that sounds special snowflake syndrome but it is a huge motivation for people.

[Kipling]

I agree A3S is the definition of a rude awakening. We, like many groups, felt the huge difference. Clearing 1/2 in a few days then spending 3 weeks on a3s alone was enough to embed that feeling in us.

I just think A3S was such a well designed fight that I would hate to see something like it be a thing of the past. It has everything that makes raids difficult: Interesting mechanics that involve all roles (DPS had never been as involved as healers or tanks in previous tiers), Individual responsibility (meaning you can't just delegate shit away and let people not participate nearly as much), high DPS checks (meaning people can't just do mechanics and get carried with medicore numbers). I just hope they don't take the general idea of this fight and throw it out.

If A3S was the final fight of the tier and we had something slightly harder than a1/a2 be the new 3rd fight, I would be okay with that. I think A3S is definitely a more fitting "Final Boss" than the Manipulator, because they quite clearly tested the shit out of A3S to make sure it was cohesive but did not really touch A4S all that much.

I'm not saying they should continue to have these drastic difficulty jumps in the middle of the tier, I just hope they don't throw the level of innovation they presented us with this tier in a3s out the window because of the shock that was created by the jump from A2S > A3S and the negative reactions to it.

[Rocl]

but I know Tank body woulda been locked on final floor again anyway.

Except that one time it dropped on the first floor.

I really don't have a problem with the manifesto/gear split in Alexander. It was always bullshit that some classes could get their biggest upgrades armor-wise (legs/body) as early as the first (and later second) fights while others had to wait until the final fight. The number of manifestos per trade-in is a bit high though, I think they could half the #s on most stuff and be more reasonable.

[Neon_Sea]

You could lessen the dps check in as3, same fight just as well designed just gives a lot more leeway on how you approach it.

[solracht]

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/126...=1#post6560729

Yoshida: The next update for Alexander will be in patch 3.2. Right now, we're working on the savage version and trying to decide whether to make it satisfying for the top players or whether to adjust it for a wider range of people. Given the cost of development, I'd lean towards a lower difficulty savage, but then some players may come back and say it isn't difficult enough...

[Kipling]

N E R F S B O Y S

[Kaiyoko]

It was fun while it lasted

[Eanae]

I agree A3S is the definition of a rude awakening. We, like many groups, felt the huge difference. Clearing 1/2 in a few days then spending 3 weeks on a3s alone was enough to embed that feeling in us.

I just think A3S was such a well designed fight that I would hate to see something like it be a thing of the past. It has everything that makes raids difficult: Interesting mechanics that involve all roles (DPS had never been as involved as healers or tanks in previous tiers), Individual responsibility (meaning you can't just delegate shit away and let people not participate nearly as much), high DPS checks (meaning people can't just do mechanics and get carried with medicore numbers). I just hope they don't take the general idea of this fight and throw it out.

If A3S was the final fight of the tier and we had something slightly harder than a1/a2 be the new 3rd fight, I would be okay with that. I think A3S is definitely a more fitting "Final Boss" than the Manipulator, because they quite clearly tested the shit out of A3S to make sure it was cohesive but did not really touch A4S all that much.

I'm not saying they should continue to have these drastic difficulty jumps in the middle of the tier, I just hope they don't throw the level of innovation they presented us with this tier in a3s out the window because of the shock that was created by the jump from A2S > A3S and the negative reactions to it.

The thing is, I don't even really think A3S is particularly hard mechanically at all. It required big dick DPS to clear before ESO weapons which 99.9999% groups will never have. But I honestly feel that this is alright because the fight was complex enough where I think three weeks of learning to hit enrage and then obtaining your Eso weapon and starting to push enrage is the perfect scheduling for a third boss in a four boss tier. It was just an awakening to groups like Yoshida said in that interview. Previously 6 good people could carry the final 2. You can't do that in Savage Alexander. And oh man did those 2 players show up with a vengeance in every single savage group. But instead of improving people blame SE for the content being too hard. I don't get the mentality. I really don't.

[AlastorTGN]

Didn't Elysium say that as well in the Playboy interview? I was pretty disappointed to see that.

[Alistaire]

Yoshi was correct when he said their should be 3 tiers. Faceroll, Coil and Savage. The A3S fallout is extreme because there is nothing for a large chunk of the playerbase.

Speaking of large chunks of the playerbase, from that same source:

By the end of October, around half of active players have cleared Alex Normal.

Half. Forget the A3S fallout, if A4N is a fallout for one out of 2 "active players" I don't even know. Stats like that and they're gonna end up catering at least partly to that other half.

[Niiro]

Aside from the ambiguity of the term "active players", a lot of people just don't even want to do Alex normal, it's not that they can't clear it.

In order to not clear Alex normal at this point being a shit player isn't even enough, you'd have to actively sabotage your group.

(obvious exaggeration, but the average group can easily carry a few bads)