September 2015 Version Update - *DISCUSSION THREAD*

[Seekerstar]

I've seen way too many epeens being stroked over how OP BST happened to be... and still is, to a point, for me to believe anything other than what I believe. My opinion is by no means unique, either, which is why I suspect it's being attacked so vehemently.

As for this little gem:

Nobody MAKES you do anything. Common sense tells you that not doing it would be incredibly stupid though. As for that pet comment... man... is that what you really think?

It would be a poor play decision if I chose not to, but I'm not so certain about "incredibly stupid". I save that phrase for things other than weapon choice in FFXI.

As for what I really think? Yeah, I do. It's painfully obvious that a SMN and a BST at equivalent power level (ilvl, 100 JP, capped out in merits for respective ability, and the accessories that assist in doing your job) are not even close to equivalent.

I don't knock actual beastmasters. It takes time and gil and annoyance with rock roulette that I just wouldn't do. I hate the bandwagoning just because someone popped out a Bertha one day and killed half the zone. Yeah, that's an exaggeration, but considering some of the crap I have seen the RMT and their armies of Taru BST pull, it isn't much of one.

Have you guys played this game since ilvl came out? 'Heavy' DD armor is defensively the worst armor type against most AoEs you'd worry about.

Sure have, even though I'll freely admit I started about two or three months prior. As for it being worse, yes, its MEVA and such tends to suck. That's been changing, as you can see from some of the SR gear. No gear that I am aware of nullifies negative statuses or a shitton of magic damage, so pretty much everyone ever is in the same boat.

Wut wut wut?

First off what jobs don't get access to weapons that hurt things? None that's what. And um not swapping axes cuts pet dps by a good 40-50%. That's like saying lvl 75 era mages didn't need elemental staffs and could just use some int wands or whatever... everyone would just laugh at you and you'd be horrible at your job and not be included in most events. But nobody "made" you use them

Both jobs have been playing pokemon master as you put it since release. Because both are pet jobs. I did get a chuckle out of trying use a piece of gear you would never melee or ws in that is several years outdated as reasoning for what the job is today. Hai guyz pup used to always get mage gear clearly it's supposed to be your off healer while it's pet goes out!!!

What is "meant" to happen is completely subjective and has no bearing on what is actually effective to do. Nin was "meant" to just DD... it clearly was very subpar at that and served for a long time much better as a tank.

All of my what for this ilvl garbage. No bst pet can go higher than 119. Period. If you want to start counting stats and such as effectively ilvls then you better count them for all jobs because they all get boosts from merits and jps and gifts or else you are being incredibly and purposefully deceptive.

7 is pretty dang small. Smaller than any pet command has ever been. Smaller than any AoE buffing. You can't even be on the other side of the mob to make your pet tank to avoid targeted stuff which is how bsts have meleed when they do pretty much since the game came out

Oh lord, here we go.

I'm not even going to point to the different varieties of weaponry one can use, nor the actual damage ratings of same. Just the fact that BST gets an A+ ranking in Axe. I'm thinking that's because they are supposed to swing them at things. I could be wrong, it could be for purely decorative purposes. SMN only gets a B in staff, which is a huge dent in accuracy. Good thing I don't have to HIT with Myrkr, though there are times when I do melee with my avatars. Mostly 'cause it's fun.

As for having to swap weapons in order to maintain maximum results... SMN do this too, all the ones I know anyway. Makes getting that 1k TP for Myrkr annoying.

BST also gets a C in Evasion/Parry, and an E in Shield. There are any number of decent shields available, though I do understand why you dualwield. Summoner gets an E in Evasion and nothing in the rest....except whatever you happen to have merited.

Summoner gets an A- in Summoning Magic, which I would refer to (as above) as incredibly stupid, because honestly an A+ makes more sense. An A- implies that something somewhere has a higher rating, and I just... yeah, incredibly stupid. BST skills nothing, nada, zilch, zero. They need gil to go and buy that single Bertha for Loyalty, and then it pays for itself in one run. That increases the difficulty curve a bit.

Yes, the BST will still be skilling her Axe after the SMN is done with her Staff, but the BST will be long done before that particular annoyance is done with.

Yes, I am aware that these lolBST can't do endgame. They try to hit stuff and their pets flounder around like dead fish. It's hilarious to watch and I don't feel sorry for any of them. That may or may not make me a bitch; I'm too old to care.

Yeah, they're both pet jobs. One is a magey pet job. The other gets combat ability along with the ability to summon something from soup. Charm is dead, so there's that flavor gone. A pile of pet food, a stack of 'hoppers (or lizards, or tigers) and a copypasta strategy guide are what one needs, it seems.

Sure, I count all stats from all jobs. Why wouldn't I? Don't accuse me of deception when the only thing you know of me is that I ran past you in PJ once or twice. That's deliberate misdirection, not to mention impolite.

All of that said, 7 is too small if you can't even stand on a mob's ass end while your pet tanks stuff. BST gets an incredible amount of pet DT gear (obtained with varying amounts of effort) and they can make adequate tanks, suck as when the paladin/rune/ninja/valoredge/whatever happens to get cheapshotted and a recovery is needed.

I would have preferred if they'd toned down the most problematic pet jugs rather than nerf distance, and if I were a BST I would be outright pissed that SE decreased BST ability range when SMN can now BP from 22 yalms away. That's a step in the wrong direction.

If it gets rid of these goddamn bandwagon "Imma call Bertha and afk" BST, though, it may be worth it.

Ninja Edit: 25th post, got title Melee Summoner. I know it's site-set but that couldn't be more appropriate if someone had made it happen.

[DaFang]

Ok, go have your melee BLM come tell me how well he hurts things compared to how the job is meant to be played.

What is "meant" to happen is not even remotely subjective. What is "meant" to happen is objective as SE is the definer of what is "meant" to happen, not the players. You can choose not to play the way it is "meant" to happen. You may be a complete dumbass in doing so, but that is your choice.

You aren't supposed to let your pet tank and you stay clear. You are supposed to stand next to your pet. That is the way SE wants you to play the job. If you want to still play the old way you can, sort of.... you'll just be running around with your head cut off constantly.

Way to ignore the content of the post you quoted. So are you saying that if SE suddenly decides to say that BLM is a frontline job, you are going to put away your Magic Attack gear and start meleeing everything because SE said that's how you play BLM now?

And really? Are people seriously trying to justify this crap by saying that bst can kill lots of fodder mobs too easy? Like for reals? On BG of all places?.... /SMH

[Seekerstar]

I wasn't justifying anything. I explained my feelings in my post above. Are you ignoring the content of the thread you're posting on now?

[NynJa]

Get with the times, crying wont get SE to change it back.

[arus2001]

I've always felt a lot of pet job advocates wouldn't be happy until their combined power beats that of two PCs. These recent conversations achingly remind me of such.

Should and shouldn't will vary per player, let alone SE. As a comparison, melee RDMs say sup. SE certainly has the final say and they're definitely prone to conceptual fuck ups, especially over 20+ jobs and then content itself. It's sad, but I think all we can really do is hope one day the private server scene winds up better than it is now so players could possibly get the chance to play jobs as they "should have been" in the first place. And that most definitely includes giving them the gear they need to function as their possible roles.

[Byrthnoth]

SE really should have just nerfed Ready moves to whatever degree they felt was necessary in instead of making BST a more annoying job to play.

[Sechs]

I dunno about that Byrth.
On one hand I agree with you: regardless of the possible success (or failure) of the distance nerf, that wasn't the right way to nerf BST. They should've done something to Ready. Put a cap on how much you can lower the timer between Ready command, nerf Charmer's Merlin, dunno what else, anything.
On the other hand though I can't say I liked seeing BSTs playing like pokemon masters, ignoring their own TP or the master's capabilities, and focusing exclusively on pet enhancing gear.
It never seemed a "natural" or planned way to play the job, but rather the unplanned consequence of exploiting a long series of nice small buffs the job received over the last year of tweaks.

[Protey]

Way to ignore the content of the post you quoted. So are you saying that if SE suddenly decides to say that BLM is a frontline job, you are going to put away your Magic Attack gear and start meleeing everything because SE said that's how you play BLM now?

And really? Are people seriously trying to justify this crap by saying that bst can kill lots of fodder mobs too easy? Like for reals? On BG of all places?.... /SMH

If SE dropped my nuking capability to the point that I would do more damage meleeing... yes I would. But SE won't do that because the intent of BLM is that they are a nuking job. SE's intent of BST is that they are a fight alongside of your pet job.

[DaFang]

If SE dropped my nuking capability to the point that I would do more damage meleeing... yes I would. But SE won't do that because the intent of BLM is that they are a nuking job. SE's intent of BST is that they are a fight alongside of your pet job.

No, you wouldn't. You would complain all over the net because that's not how people play BLM regardless of what SE thinks. And the game doesn't need BLM to be another DRK, just like it doesn't need bst to be another DRG.

[Protey]

No, you wouldn't. You would complain all over the net because that's not how people play BLM regardless of what SE thinks. And the game doesn't need BLM to be another DRK, just like it doesn't need bst to be another DRG.

First off, don't say what I will or won't do. You are not me, and you obviously don't know me very well.
Secondly, the situation is ridiculous in the first place because SE would never do that. It is a nuking job. period.
BST to be another DRG? Oh, I guess we don't need SCH to be another BLM. I guess we don't need one 2-hander DD to be another 2-hander DD. Jobs have similarities and overlaps with other jobs. Get over it.

[DaFang]

First off, don't say what I will or won't do. You are not me, and you obviously don't know me very well.
Secondly, the situation is ridiculous in the first place because SE would never do that. It is a nuking job. period.
BST to be another DRG? Oh, I guess we don't need SCH to be another BLM. I guess we don't need one 2-hander DD to be another 2-hander DD. Jobs have similarities and overlaps with other jobs. Get over it.

And sometimes those similarities and overlaps work and sometimes they don't and people bitch about them while other people act cool and pretend it's great. Get over it.

[NynJa]

Get over it.

[Protey]

And sometimes those similarities and overlaps work and sometimes they don't and people bitch about them while other people act cool and pretend it's great. Get over it.

Some of you act like whiny little 5 year olds and some of us act like adults by adapting to the situation instead of pouting and throwing a fit. So when I say "get over it" it's more like "grow up already".

[DaFang]

Some of you act like whiny little 5 year olds and some of us act like adults by adapting to the situation instead of pouting and throwing a fit. So when I say "get over it" it's more like "grow up already".

It's interesting that whining at SE until they make a drastic and unnecessary change is considered grown up, but talk about how they need to reverse that change and you need to grow up and get over it. Where were you when people were asking for the nerf? where was you maturity and acceptance of the way things are then? Too bad you couldn't adapt to the situation before the nerf. It would ahve saved everyone a lot of trouble.

[Protey]

It's interesting that whining at SE until they make a drastic and unnecessary change is considered grown up, but talk about how they need to reverse that change and you need to grow up and get over it. Where were you when people were asking for the nerf? where was you maturity and acceptance of the way things are then? Too bad you couldn't adapt to the situation before the nerf. It would ahve saved everyone a lot of trouble.

I see you still wish to remain petulant. Very well, you shall be treated as such.

/em picks up little Fang and puts him in the corner.

It's timeout for you. You will be let out of the corner when you can behave yourself.

[Tarage]

I see you still wish to remain petulant. Very well, you shall be treated as such.

/em picks up little Fang and puts him in the corner.

It's timeout for you. You will be let out of the corner when you can behave yourself.

Is this what we've come to? People no longer bothering to make logical arguments, but instead emote petty insults?

This is pathetic.

[Lolwutt]

With the amount of whining from BST about something that was not only clearly needed, but allowed them to remain a usable to borderline overpowered job, I wouldn't be that concerned about one guy getting fed up.

Every FFXI forum has a half dozen idiots whining that it was perfectly fine the way it was and the nerf needs to be undone because they now have to make actual strategies for their content.

[DaFang]

With the amount of whining from BST about something that was not only clearly needed, but allowed them to remain a usable to borderline overpowered job, I wouldn't be that concerned about one guy getting fed up.

Every FFXI forum has a half dozen idiots whining that it was perfectly fine the way it was and the nerf needs to be undone because they now have to make actual strategies for their content.

I always hear people say this, and I've done most things several different ways.... But I'm curious. What content / strategy is it that people are doing without BST that makes them so much better? Is standing in a circle magic bursting really more ingenious and mentally straining than standing in a circle skill-chaining with pets? Or is it having Vex etc. up and throwing DDs at it that is so brilliant? Because I read this forum a lot and I respect a lot of you guys, but I'm not really understanding the superiority complex in this case.

[NynJa]

You mean "sit on the sidelines while four tigers with 6k hp and capped DT each dealing DPS at the rate of a top tier sam buffed by 2 brds and a cor and a geo while having zero chance of losing" is NOT an overpowered abusive strategy?!?!?

Possible minor exaggeration in the above quote, in regards to HP or DPS, but point stands.

[Xantavia]

On the other hand though I can't say I liked seeing BSTs playing like pokemon masters, ignoring their own TP or the master's capabilities, and focusing exclusively on pet enhancing gear.
It never seemed a "natural" or planned way to play the job, but rather the unplanned consequence of exploiting a long series of nice small buffs the job received over the last year of tweaks.

I still blame abyssea for all of this. Back when I enjoyed BST, it was all about charm and ganging up on the mob 2 vs 1. Level cap is raised, they worry that bst can be too strong, and make zones where charm doesn't work, period. So now they have to make jugs viable somehow and spend the next few years trying to adjust everything. It's like they turned it into a different flavor of SMN and they lost what was fun and unique about the job in the process.