September 2015 Version Update - *DISCUSSION THREAD*

[ccl]

Why should BST have priority for being brought over other DD? The answer is they shouldn't. What should happen is for players to analyze the enemy's strengths and weaknesses and then bring the jobs with their various strengths that play off those enemy's strengths and weaknesses. It's not just straight damage. And even with that, there is some wiggle room within the various DDs to be able to substitute one for another.

Now we have zero reason to bring bst wich is an issue. Also I'd agree if there was really a difference between DD, but let's be honest here unless you're a a sam, blu or dnc you're not being optimal if you're bringing a melee.

@Damane I agree Geo should be nerfed accross the board.

[Mojo]

Are the new unity HNM drops useful? They seem lackluster although I don't know at first glance.

[hongo]

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[Not Kuno]

So whats wrong with trusts now? I have to chase mobs running towards Apururu, who is running like hell, like its a shitty 2005 exp party.

[Rehn]

Some trusts "distance" themselves from the mobs in an attempt to avoid their aoes (I guess), due to most recent patch. But since the mob is chasing them, and they want to gain distance, then the silly loop of distancing continues. Best bet is to use a tank trust to solidify aggro, or use healer trusts that naturally melee and won't have that AI, like ferreous or mihli

[dasva]

So whats wrong with trusts now? I have to chase mobs running towards Apururu, who is running like hell, like its a shitty 2005 exp party.

They made some on jobs like whm and blm and rng try to play like a real players and go out of AoE range (though they seem to wait till they get hit first) but of course if they pull hate and the mob goes to them and you go to the mob they wont stop running I'd imagine lol

[Not Kuno]

This is something.. people wanted? In the past when I solo popped stuff with trusts I'd just position the trusts how I wanted and then pop. But now shit runs all over the place, and exp is a pain because apururu just makes a beeline towards linking mobs and just dies instantly. This and the f8 change just seems to make solo exp even more suffering.

[DirtyWattz]

The F8 change couldn't come at a worse time with bubbles, pets and trusts everywhere.

[dasva]

you forget 85% dt which is a huge factor and can onlybe axhieved by players using mythics

87.5% is the cap for pets and dt II but it's not usually achievable outside of zone buffs except for automatoms (and that's only really pdt and mdt and mdt requires you to use a frame that can shell itself) , wyverns (though it would be stupid to actually gear up a drg for pet dt) and loupons.

For bst perfect gear set is 49% with another 9% from stout servant. Can get another 4% pdt with earring and can trade in some of the DT for pdt but that's not really worth it. Specific jugs have some things that can lower certain dmg a bit more (or I some cases take extra dmg from some sources). Like Tulfaire slashing resistance but piercing weakness, or acuexs blunt and piercing resistance... but huge +bdt/mdt or crab that has the shell move assuming you can keep it up. And well those all do less dmg than my tank jobs .

So really only going to get a tad bit more DT than players except certain jugs to certain types of dmg... in theory that gives them greater dmg reduction but reality it doesn't since players also gain access to other forms of reductions not available so not really fair to just say DT. Shield blocks can stop 90% on top of pdt for example though subject to actually blocking and the best block rate ones are a bit lower reduction (ochain is "only 60% for example). Vallation/vallaince are both factored after mdt/bdt so exceed cap. Sentinel goes way farther... Not direct per se but pretty huge is Battuta +inquarta can get parry rate to about 70% on top of whatever crappy base parry rate you have. There's always EA/scherzo fun times and then all the geo buffs.

Would like to add on that max hp isn't really as good an indicator of if a jug will realistically survive as it is a player. With a player and a relatively competent whm you can expect to most of the time be near topped off often with some cureskin. With jugs unless you are full of gil and spamming muslums you're pet is rarely near full. Part of it is only being able to cure every 52 seconds (note it's not 43 or 45 because there seems to be some kind of cap on gear) so naturally on anything where you even care about the dmg it deals you are going to be decently low hp by time rewards are up. And then even if timers are up in the case of mobs with scary big moves you sometimes want to wait if you don't think it will one shot you in case it does said move right after you reward overtaxing your ability to heal it back up.

So in while jugs at first glance in theory sound like they have impossible to gauge survivability in the end my run and pld will easily keep trucking when all the other pets get wiped except maybe auto even with mediocre healing. Makes the whms fall asleep most the time. Overall survivability is more on par with a full DT DD without geo buffs EA/scherzo... at least when in full dt though a lot of time is spent in a mixed set for ready luckily that is only a few slots of dt you have to take out.

[dasva]

This is something.. people wanted? In the past when I solo popped stuff with trusts I'd just position the trusts how I wanted and then pop. But now shit runs all over the place, and exp is a pain because apururu just makes a beeline towards linking mobs and just dies instantly. This and the f8 change just seems to make solo exp even more suffering.

For xping? Naw it's horrible. For extended fights where you probably have someone keeping hate and you want your healer or rng or whatever out of range of AoEs it's rather nice since they go farther back then they would before and wouldn't do those silly dumb shuffles and scoot forward as the fight goes on. F8 change though I have no idea where that came from or who the heck would even want it this way ever

[arus2001]

Exceptionally strong support class.
Indisputably the best healer in a lowman scenario, exceptionally good otherwise.
Had a strong position in zerg strategies, RDM/DRK, etc.
Indisputably the best solo class, by a freaking long shot. Honestly, for what was available for everyone back then, RDM simply eclipsed everything in terms of what it could do. Solos aside, it wouldn't fair badly solo-holding many of the games fiercest HNM.

Here's the thing, when I wax about making the game better, it wouldn't just be for RDM. XI is somewhat notorious for the herd mentality of not deviating from some standard proposed. To your first point, I always favored having good WHMs around and successes still came. To the second, Chainspell Stun is one of those things that probably never should've happened, which would facilitate mobs like Dynamis Lord or Cirrate Christelle getting tweaked to be reasonable encounters if being era appropriate. Utsusemi largely facilitated the third, which I'd chalk up as one of the worst abilities ever devised in MMO history. Things like pinning or zoning exploits also would've gotten the axe. Lastly, watching other people try to shoehorn RDM tanks into encounters just had us falling asleep because of the time needed to build enmity. "NM Holding" really shouldn't have existed, either, as it perpetuated the whole bot game and basically everything ugly about the endgame community itself.

I've seen all the lines about "bringing them down to earth" in the past, though. Be it embittered WHMs who couldn't convince people to bring them along, smarmy jackasses that threw out zingers like, "It's a MAGE!" or "Go play BLU instead!" and "You'd just make the mob spam its TP moves faster!", or the more detrimental social backlashes where once someone is known to be a good RDM, they were never really able to play another job and/or frequently told to just solo whatever if they actually wanted something. You'd also get the fear that no one would ever play any other job, but that's not true. Aesthetics serve as a vanity counter (See: PUPs who loved the job through all their lol phases), but you also get more mechanical ones like WS selection, skill caps, and associated job traits. In the end, the combined problems go back to desperation for healer/support and SE not giving the tools to better flesh out other possibilities. If the princesses wanted fast invites, fine, whatever. Jacks simply tend to not work in MMOs, though, which is why you need to take additional steps like stances to prevent fears of that superman class. The final comedy for me with all this is that eventually SCH became the epitome of the backline RDM a number of RDMs refused to migrate to because they spent so long trying to convince the melee camp they were inferior retards that conceding their own weaknesses would've been like giving up the fight. Still, SCH had better nukes, better heal/support, and "unique" (de)buffs via stratagems. They got their "Go play BLU!" line with a different coat of paint thrown back at them.

Is the class better off now than it was circa-2010 or so? Sure. SE knuckled down a bit on the identity front with some exclusive debuffs and tweaking things like immunities via immunobreak. I'm not wild about locking abilities behind the CP grind, but that is what it is. Yet, when I see someone like a BST griping they have no real reason to be brought to a fight, I can relate. Does anyone do anything with decently decked our RDM/WARs (or /NIN) in properly augmented Taeon and buffed enspells? I won't deny BLU has some strong advantages in comparison, especially if they've unlocked the second trait buff, but if the dominating answer to that prior question is, "No!" then we're back to the class failing at its job description. And not the player imposed job description we've chicken and egged over the past decade. I wish things were different. I wish some of the things SE knows and has done now where done back then. But I'm also cognizant of this being the end of the official line. Thus, my overall hope that one day the private scene is better so the ambitious folk can put such theories to the test.

[Capuchin]

They made some on jobs like whm and blm and rng try to play like a real players and go out of AoE range (though they seem to wait till they get hit first) but of course if they pull hate and the mob goes to them and you go to the mob they wont stop running I'd imagine lol

It's especially bizarre that the "keep distance" trusts exhibit this behavior, because S-E has shown with automatons (which are often where trust AI comes from) that they clearly know how to properly address it.

PUP just got Divinator II and Eminent Animator II in August. Those have the effect that the puppet will move to range when engaged, EXCEPT if the puppet gets hate it just stands still. Why this AI aspect wasn't replicated with trusts is a mystery to me...

[Tarage]

This is something.. people wanted? In the past when I solo popped stuff with trusts I'd just position the trusts how I wanted and then pop. But now shit runs all over the place, and exp is a pain because apururu just makes a beeline towards linking mobs and just dies instantly. This and the f8 change just seems to make solo exp even more suffering.

Queue Yackysax.

[Sephiran]

I found this on one of the FFXI Facebook pages. It appears to be a BST trying to adjust to the new ranges after the Sic and Ready nerf:

[dasva]

Now we have zero reason to bring bst wich is an issue. Also I'd agree if there was really a difference between DD, but let's be honest here unless you're a a sam, blu or dnc you're not being optimal if you're bringing a melee.

@Damane I agree Geo should be nerfed accross the board.

Yeah... a lot of my ls has seemingly quit since they are now basically just subpar DDs after spending mythic amounts of gil. One guy literally just finished Aymur. Haven't really compared DPS spreadsheets but isn't war fencer build up there too though? Know one guy in ls says he's doing 15-20k cloupslitters solo as a lol war/rdm and he's still missing some gear like blurred+1 and a few mab peices. Seems pretty reasonable amount of dmg for a ws you can use at 1k thanks to all the tp bonuses from gear and fencer

As far as Geo... yeah they definitely went a bit overboard with the adjustments but not sure everything needs to be nerfed. Some of the values are quite reasonable especially on dunna (like say regen and slow seems really tame) but some of them are quite out there especially certain debuffs... like how malaise with Idris can almost half mdb without any jas almost doubling magic dmg. Or how frailty with some ja usage can give more def down than every other source that can stack together being stacked together

[skyrant]

The BST change is like reducing the fuel tank of a super car because it goes too fast. It does not address the real issue and is only creating an incredible annoyance. This is one of the most stupid "fixes" i have ever seen.



/smh

[skyrant]

The F8 change couldn't come at a worse time with bubbles, pets and trusts everywhere.

I agree, SE is making bad decisions all over the place. Not sure what changed over there but it needs to STOP right this minute.

[Protey]

The BST change is like reducing the fuel tank of a super car because it goes too fast. It does not address the real issue and is only creating an incredible annoyance. This is one of the most stupid "fixes" i have ever seen.

/smh

So stand closer to your pet.

[Protey]

I agree, SE is making bad decisions all over the place. Not sure what changed over there but it needs to STOP right this minute.

Nope, they're going in the right direction. Next they need to do the same thing to PUP.

[Sechs]

Why Protey? Because of PUP tank being too overpowered?
In a way I think you're right, if that's what you mean (granted that all that sheer damage reduction power is partially counterbalanced by the fact PUP automaton has a hard time keeping hate compared to a real tank)
But it ends there.
The other pets are far from being OP (quite the other way around) and the job in itself has never been OP not even once in the FFXI history.
Keeping a small niche like the tanking one doesn't seem to me like it "breaks" the game as BST did.

In light of this, I'm not sure PUP or the game would particularly benefit from a nerf.