The Pope thread

[Tyrath]

Alright, I wasn't going to do this but I'm bored at work. So let's all talk about how socially progressive the new pope is.

He opposes trans rights

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...-10061223.html

Pope Francis compares arguments for transgender rights to nuclear arms race

"Let's think of the nuclear arms, of the possibility to annihilate in a few instants a very high number of human beings," he was quoted as saying. "Let's think also of genetic manipulation, of the manipulation of life, or of the gender theory, that does not recognise the order of creation."

"With this attitude, man commits a new sin, that against God the Creator. The true custody of creation does not have anything to do with the ideologies that consider man like an accident, like a problem to eliminate.

"God has placed man and woman and the summit of creation and has entrusted them with the earth. The design of the Creator is written in nature."

He opposes abortion in all cases

Yes, he said women can be forgiven for abortion by priests, but forgiveness does not mean that it is acceptable.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/as...-in-rape-cases

As Cardinal, Pope Francis strongly condemned abortion, including in rape cases

Condoms are bad, mmkay?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/0...n_6504580.html

Pope Francis is firmly upholding church teaching banning contraception, but said Monday that Catholics don't have to breed "like rabbits" and should instead practice "responsible parenting."

Sure, this highlights that his heart may be in the right place with responsible breeding but he still clings on to the outdated notion of condoms being bad.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...r-9983498.html

Pope Francis implored families to oppose artificial contraception and spoke out against corruption during a rally in the Philippines, Asia's biggest Catholic nation.

He denounced contraception to a crowd of 86,000 in Manila yesterday, saying: "Be sanctuaries of respect for life, proclaiming the sacredness of every human life from conception to natural death. What a gift this would be to society if every Christian family lived fully its noble vocation."

He opposes gay marriage and gay adoption

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/...ale-father-and

Although Pope Francis was praised for his “who am I to judge?” comment about gay individuals and was named Person of the Year by the homosexual magazine The Advocate in 2013, the Pope has rejected the idea of same-sex marriage as an “anthropological regression” and stressed that when it comes to adoption, “every person needs a male father and a female mother.”

He opposes women becoming priests

http://time.com/3729904/francis-women/

The first pope of the Catholic Church to have had a woman as a boss is steadfast in his defense of the status quo when it comes to women and Church leadership

Hasn't done nearly enough to fight child abuse in the church

http://www.vox.com/2015/9/23/9376485...ncis-sex-abuse

But survivors of clerical sex abuse still aren't celebrating the pope's visit. Activists at Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests (SNAP) argue that Francis has offered more happy talk and conciliatory language than actual changes that would crack down on abusive clergy. They point to the breathtaking extent of the abuse: A 2004 paper by investigators at John Jay College found that between 1950 and 2002, 4,392 out of 109,794 total priests faced "not implausible" sexual assault accusations — 4 percent. As of 2014, the total was up to 6,427 priests credibly accused, with 17,259 alleged victims.

But he thinks greed and capitalism are bad and climate change is real so he must be a super progressive right? Talk about a low fucking bar.

I will admit, he has a LOT of positive messages and says things that sound right. But as far as doing things and enacting meaningful changes, there is much left to be desired.



Edit: Actually speaking of his view on climate change

http://www.vocativ.com/news/234757/p...limate-change/

Pope Francis agrees we need to curb emissions because, as countless studies have shown, as the planet gets warmer the poor are the first to suffer. But climate scientists say all that means next to nothing until the world–and the Pope–gets serious about contraception.

Edit 2: Bonus

Pope made a side comment in support of Kim Davis

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/pop...ictims-n434681

Pope Francis appeared to weigh in on the side of anti-gay-marriage clerk Kim Davis, saying government workers have a "human right" to refuse to carry out a duty if they have a "conscientious objection."

While returning from his visit to the U.S., the pontiff told reporters aboard the papal plane Monday that anyone who prevents others from exercising their religious freedom is denying them a human right.

As my friend (Tymon) said on the topic, he must not be familiar with the concept of separation of church and state given that he lives in a religious state.

[Jefe]

"Let's Talk Shit About the Pope"

[Tyrath]

We were told to take the talk out of the presidential thread. People can add their own thoughts on the matter, or they could shitpost like you are I guess.

[Jaybar]

None of those stances are surprising coming from a Church doctrine stance. No one is saying he's steering away from Catholic teachings. In fact most of his "progressive" stances are imbedded in church doctrine (immigration, stewardship, helping the poor, etc). To me he's trying to change the conversation from "repent or suffer in hell" to "help those most in need" aka follow Jesus and the Gospel.

[Dimmauk]

I don't get the hate for the new Pope. This guy is way better than any other pope we've had, Fox news hates him, he recognizes climate change, corporate greed, immigration, etc. Sure he isn't going to fucking change everything to make everyone happy, but he isn't bad at all.

The fact that conservatives are freaking out because the pope is moving his religion away from the right is a good thing. The majority of Congress is catholic, and the same goes for voters. Fox news is complaining about the Pope being political, but the GOP politicized religion for their own good years ago.

[Tyrath]

None of those stances are surprising coming from a Church doctrine stance. No one is saying he's steering away from Catholic teachings. In fact most of his "progressive" stances are imbedded in church doctrine (immigration, stewardship, helping the poor, etc). To me he's trying to change the conversation from "repent or suffer in hell" to "help those most in need" aka follow Jesus and the Gospel.

It really bothers me that you imply that we should give the bigotry a free pass because it's to be expected from the catholic church. I know many catholics who not only hold the progressive stances he holds but also don't view gay and transgendered people with outdated views.

I don't get the hate for the new Pope. This guy is way better than any other pope we've had, Fox news hates him, he recognizes climate change, corporate greed, immigration, etc. Sure he isn't going to fucking change everything to make everyone happy, but he isn't bad at all.

The fact that conservatives are freaking out because the pope is moving his religion away from the right is a good thing. The majority of Congress is catholic, and the same goes for voters. Fox news is complaining about the Pope being political, but the GOP politicized religion for their own good years ago.

You confuse thinking he is undeserving of all the applause for hating the pope. People keep doing this when I argue against the pope's "progressive" values and it really takes away from the argument. I don't hate the pope. I don't think he is a bad man. I think he has some great messages. I also think he is the perfect PR campaign to better the image of the church without really enacting any changes in the way the church works.

[Jaybar]

It really bothers me that you imply that we should give the bigotry a free pass because it's to be expected from the catholic church. I know many catholics who not only hold the progressive stances he holds but also don't view gay and transgendered people with outdated views.

I think you misunderstand me, although it was just a quick response to the thread in general. I get that you don't think the Pope is progressive and I simply responded as to why he is progressive from the present church perspective - not from a global/social perspective - in that regard I don't think he's progressive ENOUGH. Don't get me wrong I was upset with his views on the LGBT and abortion issues but I can understand why he would hold the latter to heart when standing on the pillars of the Gospel - still don't agree with it but hey at least he's consistent.

[Dimmauk]

Most organized religions are horrible on the subject of LGBT, and that wont change. The new pope is a step in the right direction when it comes to social issues. You have to look at all the issues, and not pick and choose.

[Rooney]

He may be a step in the right direction, but the fact that his speeches are tailored to different locations is a big mark against him for me. He is supposed to be espousing the view/doctrine of the church. Conveniently omitting certain phrases because a more liberal group might not like them is shady. It's a good PR move for sure, but it's not a good move when you're supposed to be the moral standard.

[Dimmauk]

Conveniently omitting certain phrases .

WELCOME TO ALL PRIESTS FROM ALL RELIGIONS

[zoobernut]

Most organized religions are horrible on the subject of LGBT, and that wont change. The new pope is a step in the right direction when it comes to social issues. You have to look at all the issues, and not pick and choose.

This is how I view it. I think that in the grand scheme of things this is a great step in the right direction. How long has he been pope? How much longer does he have as pope? I think that he will start moving towards effecting more change in how the church operates in the future rather than just talking about it. But don't underestimate how important it is to just shift the conversation like he wants from accusations and anger towards helping and supporting the world to be a better place.

And at the same time I agree there is a lot left to work on and be desired. Maybe if this pope does well for the church they will continue to appoint more popes like him and over time we will get to a point where the other things can be worked on as well.

For the record I am atheist and I find some of this popes statements compelling.

[Tyrath]

Most organized religions are horrible on the subject of LGBT, and that wont change. The new pope is a step in the right direction when it comes to social issues. You have to look at all the issues, and not pick and choose.

Please explain to me all the social issues he's great on. He has spoken out on poverty and capitalism. That's all I got.

[Dimmauk]

Please explain to me all the social issues he's great on. He has spoken out on poverty and capitalism. That's all I got.

Immigration and climate change off the top of my head

[Tyrath]

Immigration and climate change off the top of my head

Climate change is not a social issue. As I have highlighted above, agreeing on commonly accepted scientific data doesn't make you a big progressive. It should basically be the status quo.

I'll grant you immigration. He's been good with that.

[zoobernut]

Please explain to me all the social issues he's great on. He has spoken out on poverty and capitalism. That's all I got.

It isn't also just about individual social issues it is also about a bigger initiative to change the conversation shifting from one of accusation and punishment for committing sin to helping prop society and people up helping them out. That is a pretty big shift from the past in the approach the church has taken.

[Tyrath]

It isn't also just about individual social issues it is also about a bigger initiative to change the conversation shifting from one of accusation and punishment for committing sin to helping prop society and people up helping them out. That is a pretty big shift from the past in the approach the church has taken.

A lot of that to me is just to make the church appear in better light to people because churches are losing members at a great rate.

It's like when he says atheists can go to heaven, he leaves out the huge implied part where you would have to convert after death to be able to enter heaven. And he says "who are we to judge gay people?" Meanwhile he confirms his stance of anti-gay and says gay adoption is bad because kids need a mommy and a daddy.

[zoobernut]

A lot of that to me is just to make the church appear in better light to people because churches are losing members at a great rate.

It's like when he says atheists can go to heaven, he leaves out the huge implied part where you would have to convert after death to be able to enter heaven. And he says "who are we to judge gay people?" Meanwhile he confirms his stance of anti-gay and says gay adoption is bad because kids need a mommy and a daddy.

I totally agree with you. And I think you are asking too much too fast. You can't expect one man even though he is the pope to make drastic huge changes to the church this soon after taking his post as pope. I think that he is making some huge first strides in the right direction.

If he leaves it where it is now and doesn't do anything to further advance the church then you are absolutely correct in your assessment but to me this feels like a setup for something bigger. The first step is changing the conversation then it opens the door to make real lasting changes to how the church operates.

[Dimmauk]

A lot of that to me is just to make the church appear in better light to people because churches are losing members at a great rate.

It's like when he says atheists can go to heaven, he leaves out the huge implied part where you would have to convert after death to be able to enter heaven. And he says "who are we to judge gay people?" Meanwhile he confirms his stance of anti-gay and says gay adoption is bad because kids need a mommy and a daddy.

I agree kids need a mom and dad, but the sex of the mom and dad shouldn't matter.

[Xno Kappa]

He may be a step in the right direction, but the fact that his speeches are tailored to different locations is a big mark against him for me. He is supposed to be espousing the view/doctrine of the church. Conveniently omitting certain phrases because a more liberal group might not like them is shady. It's a good PR move for sure, but it's not a good move when you're supposed to be the moral standard.

Can you give an example?

[archibaldcrane]

I agree kids need a mom and dad, but the sex of the mom and dad shouldn't matter.

Uh

You mean "you agree kids need two parents"?