The Pope thread

[Blubbartron]

I'm jumping on board the "fuck the pope" team. As pope, he is CEO of the corporation and leader of the Catholic religion (the Holy See), as well as the king of their tiny country. He has immense power, and he's using that power to be a spokesperson instead of actually effecting change. He's acting like he's the Queen of England (a figurehead) when he should be acting like a president (someone with immense power who is still beholden to politics, which obviously religion is all a political game at that level anyway).

[archibaldcrane]

Yes, as in I am an atheist. No, as in I don't believe abortion is a sin.

You don't believe it's a sin because you don't believe god (and therefore sin) exist. Which makes perfect sense.

Now, my question is, should the pope think abortion is a sin?

[Tyrath]

Enough with all the hell and damnation and lets work together to address real issues. Like homelessness, like treating your fellow man with respect etc.

This stuff I am on board with with the pope.

[Tyrath]

You don't believe it's a sin because you don't believe god (and therefore sin) exist. Which makes perfect sense.

Now, my question is, should the pope think abortion is a sin?

I'm not going to do this post by post with you. I know why he believes what he believes. My entire point is that a lot of those beliefs hold him back from being the crazy progressive that everyone is labeling him. Do you see the slight difference in the actual argument I'm making??

I don't expect the pope to suddenly come out in favor of abortion. I just expect people to tone down the progressive talk a bit, because he is, by his very nature in being the pope and holding the beliefs that he does, not going to be that progressive.

[ronin sparthos]

I'm jumping on board the "fuck the pope" team. As pope, he is CEO of the corporation and leader of the Catholic religion (the Holy See), as well as the king of their tiny country. He has immense power, and he's using that power to be a spokesperson instead of actually effecting change. He's acting like he's the Queen of England (a figurehead) when he should be acting like a president (someone with immense power who is still beholden to politics, which obviously religion is all a political game at that level anyway).

This is unreasonable. He's the Pope, the CEO if we play your game but he can't affect change overnight as he still operates within an overarching structure. The Catholic Church won't change overnight but from what we've seen he is planting the seeds of change while backing up what he believes in with action. Like foregoing the palaces, focusing on the poor, climate change, women and the like.

Part of me is cynical here, believing this to be one big PR job but it's the Popes game to lose. So far he's acted within the bounds of his faith, he is the fucking Pope afterall but he's shifted the focus away from the coercion and combative stances to one of mutual understanding and good works much to the chagrin to some of his more hardcore Catholics.

Again, if you're an atheist you're never going to line up with the fucking Pope but be reasonable here.

[archibaldcrane]

"Everyone is praising him for being so progressive" is a huge strawman.

People are praising him for being progressive FOR A POPE. I know you understand that, so stop misrepresenting it.

[Tyrath]

Considering some of the stuff I've seen posted about him, I don't think so.

But I will agree that he is progressive for a pope.

[Wulfgang]

I actually like the Pope! Everything's relative; compared to his predecessors, he is easily the most progressive in the modern era. In the end, can and should he do more? I honestly think he'd like to, but he also can't entirely alienate the core Catholic base. I believe he's doing the best he can while continuing to straddle the line. I also just find him to be such a likable fellow; reminds me of my grandpa. His background in Argentina is so legit too; archaic views are disappointing, but this guy has done so much good that really demands a fair amount of respect.

[Tyche]

You have to have some understanding of cultural relavatism to discuss this, which doesn't seem to be something Tyrath gets. It's simply not realistic to believe the pope of the Catholic Church is going to fundamentally change the church in one papacy. If he made such drastic changes, he wouldn't be the pope. A relatively progressive pope will still instill more positive change than an incredibly progressive nobody from Argentina. The idea here is sparking change that continues to push the church forward.

[Tyrath]

If he made such drastic changes, he wouldn't be the pope.

Isn't the pope supposed to be infallible?

Regardless, you keep responding to things I'm not arguing for, so it doesn't seem worth arguing back.

[Tyche]

You literally said said that this pope is doing the least that anyone in his position could do, then followed that up by saying that he's slightly better than his predecessors, so forgive me for not following your argument. It's a bit scattered.

[Tyche]

Isn't the pope supposed to be infallible?

No, they aren't. And it's still an "elected" official, so his views matter. No pope that doesn't believe in foundational teaching is going to be the pope.

[Blubbartron]

This is unreasonable. He's the Pope, the CEO if we play your game but he can't affect change overnight as he still operates within an overarching structure. The Catholic Church won't change overnight but from what we've seen he is planting the seeds of change while backing up what he believes in with action. Like foregoing the palaces, focusing on the poor, climate change, women and the like.

Part of me is cynical here, believing this to be one big PR job but it's the Popes game to lose. So far he's acted within the bounds of his faith, he is the fucking Pope afterall but he's shifted the focus away from the coercion and combative stances to one of mutual understanding and good works much to the chagrin to some of his more hardcore Catholics.

Again, if you're an atheist you're never going to line up with the fucking Pope but be reasonable here.

It's not "my game." The Holy See is a legal, corporate person, and the pope is the CEO of said corporation.

[Tyrath]

You literally said said that this pope is doing the least that anyone in his position could do, then followed that up by saying that he's slightly better than his predecessors, so forgive me for not following your argument. It's a bit scattered.

It is the least he can do. I understand why. I just don't think it's worth all the praise. He's taken the careful approach so as to alienate as few people as possible.

He advocates being good to your fellow man and helping the poor. Shouldn't that be a given coming from a follower of Jesus? Should I be jumping for joy that the pope thinks we should be decent people? In 2015 is that really such a progressive stance?

Yes, I think he is better than his predecessors, but they started so far away that a few steps in the right direction are hardly an achievement. I know he can't take drastic action (even though if you follow the religion itself he should be able to because he is infallible), but he still needs to do more than the bare minimum before I think he's great. Right now he's okay, and my only argument has been that people (mainly atheists that I'm concerned with on this) are overestimating him and acting like he's the best thing since sliced bread.

[Tyrath]

No, they aren't. And it's still an "elected" official, so his views matter. No pope that doesn't believe in foundational teaching is going to be the pope.

I don't think you need to abandon foundational teaching to be harsher on child rapists, but thats just me.

Also

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

I know it's an elected position, but you can't have it both ways. You can't have all the mumbo jumbo about god and then fall back on the "just a regular elected official" argument when he fails to enact bigger things than telling people to be nice and to follow accepted science.

[Tyche]

I don't think you need to abandon foundational teaching to be harsher on child rapists, but thats just me.

Also

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

I know it's an elected position, but you can't have it both ways. You can't have all the mumbo jumbo about god and then fall back on the "just a regular elected official" argument when he fails to enact bigger things than telling people to be nice and to follow accepted science.

He's only infallible when speaking ex cathedra, which this pope, and others has vowed not to do. A throwback to John XxIII

[Dimmauk]

It is the least he can do. I understand why. I just don't think it's worth all the praise. He's taken the careful approach so as to alienate as few people as possible.

He advocates being good to your fellow man and helping the poor. Shouldn't that be a given coming from a follower of Jesus? Should I be jumping for joy that the pope thinks we should be decent people? In 2015 is that really such a progressive stance?

Yes, I think he is better than his predecessors, but they started so far away that a few steps in the right direction are hardly an achievement. I know he can't take drastic action (even though if you follow the religion itself he should be able to because he is infallible), but he still needs to do more than the bare minimum before I think he's great. Right now he's okay, and my only argument has been that people (mainly atheists that I'm concerned with on this) are overestimating him and acting like he's the best thing since sliced bread.

Like I mentioned before, the reason why its a big deal it he is actively moving away from the right. You can look at it as he is pandering to get more people into the church or you can look at it as a way for the church to stop hurting people for being themselves. He said it himself. He wants more inclusion and no more exclusion. He even told his own bishops and cardinals to stop buying gaudy crap, or they would have to start paying taxes. If only other churches would do the same. He still has more work to do though. The Vatican owns stock in companies that are in line with their beliefs. Kinda like Chikfila.

You are totally entitled to your "beliefs", but you are crazy to think Catholicism will change overnight and be more in like with how you think. Its kinda a big Religion, and you dont even believe in religions, so.....

[Tyrath]

He's only infallible when speaking ex cathedra, which this pope, and others has vowed not to do. A throwback to John XxIII

Alright well that I don't know enough about, so I will take your word for it. Regardless I feel like we're gonna have to agree to disagree on what "slightly more progressive" means when it comes to this pope.

I am hopeful he will cause bigger changes in the future.

[Blubbartron]

You are totally entitled to your "beliefs", but you are crazy to think Catholicism will change overnight and be more in like with how you think. Its kinda a big Religion, and you dont even believe in religions, so.....

I'm reminded of the quote from Dogma. Something to the effect of "people shouldn't have beliefs - they should have ideas. You can change an idea." Basically, if the pope or college of cardinals have ever spoken ex cathedra (I did some reading on the wiki page, it includes the college) regarding a "moral" issue like homosexuality or birth control, then Catholics are FUCKED for eternity. They can never change that belief, because doing so would undermine every other belief they have that is supposed to be infallible. So the rest of us sane people have to be content with them taking baby steps of awkward, labored reinterpretations of straight-forward language. An Olympic qualifying game of mental gymnastics. That's what we get to look forward to and cling to for hope that 1.6 billion people will stop believing fucking stupid, harmful things.

[Ksandra]

It seems the problem with Tyrath is he has spent wayyyy too much listening to American politics.

The term "progressive" is not limited to those who are liberal democrats. People are not using that word in a political fashion when describing the Pope. The Pope is also not only the Pope of Americans and you have to look how this can change things all over the world where Catholics are. Perhaps if you could take your head out of politics and realize that's not what people are referring to when they say he's a progressive Pope, you might understand it better.