PC Principal thread

[Deftscythe]

http://imgur.com/gallery/RcW1N

Sounds like you guys need a good step down memory lane. 4Chan goes ham on the Steven Universe Tumblr fandom after they drove a fan artist to borderline suicide via harassment and doxxing. They implore the creators to back them up, just to be told that they're being trolled, and the creators even laugh at some of the trolling. After a "reveal" of the creator of the Tumblr, the vitriol is immediately backpedaled on.

I love SU and this shit is amazing.

[dasva]

Geez and I thought the SPN fandom was completely fucked up but man those guys are sure trying to be worse

[Thunder]

Maybe you should have read the article. You probably would have been less incensed by the conclusion if you had read literally anything written before it.

Because you probably won't anyways, the article talks about wage data that is broken down by level of education. Asians in the 40's were paid roughly the same as blacks at every level of education, both of whom made less than equally educated whites. Asians in the 80's, on the other hand, were paid roughly the same as whites at equal levels of education - both still more than equally educated blacks.

Asians as a whole make more on average than whites today because Asians are disproportionately more likely to hold college degrees. But college educated Asians still make less than equivalently educated whites.

Ironically, Asians did not become more individually prosperous because they worked harder and became more educated but because white people believed in the myth that they worked harder and became more educated.

Thx 4 reed,
An Asian American with a graduate education

I read it too, and all of the article's thoughts are from a recently published study titled "Upward Mobility and Discrimination: The Case of Asian Americans". He links it in the sentence,

"Instead, his research suggests that society simply became less racist toward Asians."

and everything thereafter credits Hilger, the author of that paper - except for the last graph and last couple paragraphs, those the original thoughts of the washingtonpost author, afaik.

What I'm noticing is (according solely to the conclusions gleaned from the charts shown in the article, idk if Hilger checks his hypothesis using other data) that he's using highest grade completed as his benchmark for education, which kind of doesn't work for me, especially when his hypothesis is that the at-home culture of asians is NOT a large part of why they succeed over blacks.

Not going to pay 5 bucks just to study up on a subject I've already made conclusions on from having endured the glory days of starcraft and it being dominated by koreans but I probably wouldn't even get far because I can't make total sense of his abstract,

I focus on California, where most Asians settled historically. Asians achieved extraordinary upward mobility relative to both blacks and whites for every cohort born in California since 1920. This mobility stemmed primarily from gains in earnings conditional on education, rather than unusual educational attainment. Historical test score data suggest that low initial earnings for Asians—unlike blacks—primarily reflected prejudice rather than skills.

conditional on education, rather than educational attainment? Don't completely understand the difference between education and educational attainment, and I suspect that's a lynchpin of the paper if it's a sentence in the abstract. Unless he's saying asians didn't achieve high in schools, and instead were educated at home. Which is opposite to his own thesis?

Basically, based on the data the Wpost guy focused on and this guy's abstract I don't have confidence in his conclusion that the majority reason asians, as a collective whole, have seemingly achieved success over the last century is because of a "self-fulling prophecy bias" where whites began to think asians worked hard and where smart so they gave asians better jobs

[Niiro]

I think people in general, and Americans in particular, have a hard time admitting that success relies just as much (if not more) on being given good opportunities as it does personal work ethic.

The fact of the matter is there were (and are) people who very much did not want black people to succeed in this country, and generations of that sort of treatment has consequences.

[thetruepandagod]

Asians don't succeed because of their own hard work is all i'm hearin from yall. Literally some jaeden smith tier are my eyes real if I can't see them shit. Asians only succeeded because whites thought they were successful ya ok.

[Niiro]

Asians don't succeed because of their own hard work is all i'm hearin from yall.

You're the only one saying that.

[thetruepandagod]

"But the greatest thing that ever happened to them wasn't that they studied hard. It's that other Americans started treating them with a little more respect."

Ironically, Asians did not become more individually prosperous because they worked harder and became more educated but because white people believed in the myth that they worked harder and became more educated.

hard time admitting that success relies just as much (if not more) on being given good opportunities as it does personal work ethic.

Essentially Asian's upbringing, 2 parent homes, importance of education/work are all secondary to how white americans view them is all i'm seeing. Your quote is the only one which might possibly be exempt if you are referencing the fact that their parents are the ones giving them good opportunities and that that is a huge factor, a factor which only exists BECAUSE their parents worked so hard for it.

[Niiro]

The point you're missing is that all the hard work in the world does not amount to anything when your application gets ignored by the person hiring as soon as they see "Jamal" in the name field.

Asians in the US were given opportunities that black people were not.

[Thunder]

I don't think panda, or anyone else, is saying that blacks are discriminated against less than asians

[thetruepandagod]

Well, maybe Chris/david/michael Lee's parents did a better job naming their child than jamal/shaquanda Jones' did allowing their child to better plant their foot into the work space. I think you are legitimately retarded, the article is niche clickbait arguing a faulty perspective and I hope that whoever times me out gets rectal cancer, which since it will be bane this means nothing.

Also to quote DMX "this nigga's name BARACK?!" was our president, I dare to say that merit goes a lot further than a name most of the time.

But just for fun, please elaborate on the following with your slew of examples i'm sure you have.

Asians in the US were given opportunities that black people were not.

While you are at it tell me how college admission requirements are not a modern case of blacks being given an opportunity that asians are not.

[Niiro]

http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873

[thetruepandagod]

http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873

Have less shit parents to give you a better name. If name is a huge difference then you are telling me it only took asians a single generation to learn to name their kids like standard white americans and blacks can't/won't in how many?

Same people not hiring people because of names like Jamal prolly ain't hiring Crystal,Chardonnay or Cletus either.

I am of the opinion that job applications should be nameless/genderless/racefree as well. Let me know when you have a study that uses white trash names though. Got white australian's naming their daughters Souzzene instead of susan, i'd like to see race play out in those 2 applications side by side.

Also you seem to be making this into a black vs white thing now instead of black vs asian like we are talking about.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ning-callbacks

While 25.5% of resumes received callbacks if African American candidates’ names were “whitened”, only 10% received a callback if they left their name and experience unaltered. For Asian applicants, 21% heard back if they changed their resume, and only 11.5% of candidates did if their resumes were not “whitened”.

Asians don't seem to have it any better in regards to names, why is it asians tend to end up better off? Is it just because they are better at giving their kids white names?

I'm tired and i've lost the plot i'm out.

[Greatguardian]

conditional on education, rather than educational attainment? Don't completely understand the difference between education and educational attainment, and I suspect that's a lynchpin of the paper if it's a sentence in the abstract. Unless he's saying asians didn't achieve high in schools, and instead were educated at home. Which is opposite to his own thesis?

Basically, based on the data the Wpost guy focused on and this guy's abstract I don't have confidence in his conclusion that the majority reason asians, as a collective whole, have seemingly achieved success over the last century is because of a "self-fulling prophecy bias" where whites began to think asians worked hard and where smart so they gave asians better jobs

That line means that Asian Americans made gains in wages in each educational bracket during the 20th century, not that more Asians started going to college. Many highly educated Asians flooding the markets are immigrants or children of immigrants. Home-grown Asian Americans don't have a significant educational advantage over home-grown whites/blacks. They just started getting paid more for the same work and with the same level of education they had before for no apparent reason other than a shift in how American culture as a whole viewed Asians. In fact, prior to these cultural shifts, Chinese/Asian workers were often thought to be lazier and more drug-addled than black workers.

Essentially Asian's upbringing, 2 parent homes, importance of education/work are all secondary to how white americans view them is all i'm seeing. Your quote is the only one which might possibly be exempt if you are referencing the fact that their parents are the ones giving them good opportunities and that that is a huge factor, a factor which only exists BECAUSE their parents worked so hard for it.

You've kinda already made my point in other posts. How many HR departments think Jamal only got into Stanford to meet a quota? The importance of education/work imparted on me by both my parents is a part of why I'm getting my Ph.D right now. But it is largely in the hands of other people how much I'm paid once I get it. How likely are people to think I earned my degrees and represent a credit to my field? Pretty likely if they think all Asians have some culturally ingrained need to work hard. How likely are people to think Jamal earned his degrees and represents a credit to his field? Less so if they think he made it through via affirmative action and his spot in programs could've gone to a smarter white guy.

For the record, most Asian parents don't actually give their kids white names. Their kids just learn early on that your average American can't and won't pronounce their names correctly so they start going by Justin or James instead. My name is both extremely common and read entirely in English phonetics because neither I nor my white mother speak the language it originates from and people still can't pronounce it without tripping all over themselves.

[Thunder]

thanks for clearing education vs educational attainment up, makes sense - though I'm now considering just buying the article because he surely provided evidence that unusual educational attainment =/= more success

Home-grown Asian Americans don't have a significant educational advantage over home-grown whites/blacks. They just started getting paid more for the same work and with the same level of education they had before for no apparent reason other than a shift in how American culture as a whole viewed Asians. In fact, prior to these cultural shifts, Chinese/Asian workers were often thought to be lazier and more drug-addled than black workers.

You think, as a whole, asians don't have advantages over blacks in education? If there was no self-fulling prophecy of teachers thinking blax are lazy and asians are hard working, of course
Or did you mean they don't have any advantages of education in the sense that asians don't learn any more from their asian parents than blacks do from their black parents?

And the stereotype of the lazy black student/worker is simply racism? And if america were as racist towards asians as blacks they too would be regarded as lazy students/workers? That is to say, on average blacks are just as studious and hard-working as asians?

[dasva]

You've kinda already made my point in other posts. How many HR departments think Jamal only got into Stanford to meet a quota? The importance of education/work imparted on me by both my parents is a part of why I'm getting my Ph.D right now. But it is largely in the hands of other people how much I'm paid once I get it. How likely are people to think I earned my degrees and represent a credit to my field? Pretty likely if they think all Asians have some culturally ingrained need to work hard. How likely are people to think Jamal earned his degrees and represents a credit to his field? Less so if they think he made it through via affirmative action and his spot in programs could've gone to a smarter white guy.

So what do you think the odds are affirmative action harms Jamal more than it helps him?

[Greatguardian]

thanks for clearing education vs educational attainment up, makes sense - though I'm now considering just buying the article because he surely provided evidence that unusual educational attainment =/= more success

You think, as a whole, asians don't have advantages over blacks in education? If there was no self-fulling prophecy of teachers thinking blax are lazy and asians are hard working, of course
Or did you mean they don't have any advantages of education in the sense that asians don't learn any more from their asian parents than blacks do from their black parents?

And the stereotype of the lazy black student/worker is simply racism? And if america were as racist towards asians as blacks they too would be regarded as lazy students/workers? That is to say, on average blacks are just as studious and hard-working as asians?

There's a problem with the equivalence. There are, essentially, two very different groups of Asians living in this country. You have 5th or 6th generation Asian Americans whose ancestors came here to be laborers and 0th or 1st generation Asian Americans who are either highly educated immigrants themselves or the children of highly educated immigrants. The former group has never been significantly more educated than other Americans and still isn't to this day. The latter represent most of the gains in Asian higher education. Children of parents with college degrees are themselves more likely to get college degrees regardless of race. My father has a PhD and my mother has two master's degrees. Everyone in my family, including my sister's husband (who is black), is either finishing their Masters or Ph.D right now.

The former have always been treated roughly on par with other minority groups. The latter, on the other hand, have come out in droves over the last few decades and to a degree have unintentionally uplifted the former. By flooding the market with motivated, educated Asians they have changed the general perception of all Asian Americans and made it easier for 5th generation Asian Americans to find high paying jobs.

edit: And yes, Asians who have been here for 5+ generations and don't have parents with college degrees are as "lazy" as anyone else who's been here for 5+ generations and doesn't have parents with college degrees.

So what do you think the odds are affirmative action harms Jamal more than it helps him?

Affirmative action helps Jamal get into college in the first place and get some jobs afterwards. He may not earn as much as a white with a college degree but he sure as hell earns more than he would with a high school diploma or no job at all. Let's be real. Even if affirmative action wasn't institutionalized, people would still think Jamal only "made it" because of white guilt or some other inherent bias in his favor.

[thetruepandagod]

Seein all these jamal's thrown around makes me feel more uncomfortable than any amount of niggas could.

[dasva]

Seein all these jamal's thrown around makes me feel more uncomfortable than any amount of niggas could.

My Jamal

[Zetanio]

Jammmaaallllllll

[Greatguardian]

I once had a student named Marcellus. That dude had the coolest fucking name. So jelly.