PC Principal thread

[Greatguardian]

I don't believe I ever argued these people don't exist, but their beliefs vary from person-to-person to stoke their own individuality, and to portray them as exemplifying the beliefs or direction of "the left" as a whole is erroneous. His gender commentary is pants-on-head ridiculous and uninformed.

They represent such a tiny fraction as to be irrelevant, let alone representative -- indeed, they utterly lack representation in government, unlike his example of the right's equivalent. The author is completely disingenuous throughout.

The complaint most people have is generally levied at obnoxious college students . . . who have always been just that, and never been paid attention to, in any generation.

Do I have to remind you that this author mocked the concept of "toxic masculinity" with a hyperlink to an article about the Pulse shooter, which specifically said masculinity is generally not toxic, but can be? Dishonest.

I'm sorry, are you still hung up on his use of the word "Left"? I think it's fairly obvious that anyone as "moderate" as I am or you seem to be isn't really counted among the "Left" in public discourse any more, regardless of how we self-identify.

[Yuri-G]

IMO:
Gender is the tools you were born with.
Sex is what you do with those tools.

sex is what you are born with. gender is the psychological expression of a societal institution based upon sex.

Gender is what sex you self identify as.

that's an oversimplification but it's pretty accurate, yeah

Gender is what sex you self identify as. (which in my opinion is just a shitty rationalization for being attracted to the same sex so you don't have to feel guilty[not that there is any reason to feel guilty in actuality] about being a homosexual)

I'm going to try very hard to be nice because I don't think you meant any harm, but there is so much wrong here. Homosexuals have varying degrees of gender expression ranging from completely masculine to completely feminine to completely androgynous and everything in-between - just like straight people and bisexual people and any other sexuality. I'd be remiss if I didn't admit that gender expression and homosexuality are linked in a variety of ways, but it's far more complex than "gay mens tryina act feminine because they like dudes." Fuck. That.

Sex is what tools you were biologically equipped with.

correct.

I get people that want a sex change to be closer to who they feel like they are as a person - but biologically, getting a sex change is just cosmetic and does not actually change your gender. You don't suddenly grow a set of ovaries when they chop your dick off and sell it to china.

You are correct, but you're also being needlessly dickish about this. People kill themselves over their trans identity. Joking about "chopping off your dick and selling it to China" speaks for itself, moving on.

What I don't get are the people that claim to be gender fluid. That sounds like complete bullshit to me.

It's not bullshit.

To me, if you feel like a woman one day and a man the next, I would call you bisexual.

Completely misses the mark; a person who is gender fluid probably still prefers one gender and/or sex to fuck. Gender fluidity and bisexuality/pansexuality are not the same thing.

I guess you could feel like a woman who likes woman but still be a man. That is where this argument about gender/sex/self identification fails for me.

This is actually me except I'm a man who feels like a woman but still likes men. I am a queen boss bitch and I ain't ashamed of that. But I do not want to get rid of my dick. I fucking love my penis. So I would identify as biologically male, gender-fluid but primarily female. Honestly, most people are gender-fluid when you get down to it, they just don't explore that part of themselves because they have no need or desire to do so. It's easier to just run with the gender that society assigns you.

Just so everyone knows, I self identify as a UH-60 Blackhawk. Tomorrow I might self identify as a sturgil simpson. Neither one of these self identifications change what I am biologically, a motherfuckin sexy piece of man meat.

The "I identify as an attack helicopter" meme is stale as fuck. Find a new way to express your viewpoint.

[Zetanio]

This thread is following the same road as the last 20 times we've all talked about this.

[Yuri-G]

This thread is following the same road as the last 20 times we've all talked about this.

Do you have a point or are you just shitposting? Not being a dick, honest question. Also I have no idea what you posting my avatar is supposed to mean.

[Zetanio]

Do you have a point or are you just shitposting?

Well I'm agreeing with you but yes I'm shitposting.

[Yuri-G]

Well I'm agreeing with you but yes I'm shitposting.

Ah, carry on then. I'm just bored at work anyway.

[EternityEnd]

I'm sorry, are you still hung up on his use of the word "Left"? I think it's fairly obvious that anyone as "moderate" as I am or you seem to be isn't really counted among the "Left" in public discourse any more, regardless of how we self-identify.

I stand behind everything I said in my original dissection of the article, which was substantially more than his monolithic language.

His comparison is flawed from top-to-bottom. His article begins by annotating the flaws with the current GOP government's actions, and then attempts to draw a parallel with the left, but his parallel is to a tiny fraction of young adults and college students, which has no basis in reality for the democratic party as a political entity.

His entire critique of the left is also inseparably married to his own misunderstandings of sex, gender, and sexuality, and predicated on the unsubstantiated lie that transgender people are endeavoring to erase gender completely. Which, again, makes no sense, because transgenderism is indelibly about gender, just as sexuality is about sex (not gender, or gender roles, although some gender roles can be preferential to people). Let's remember some quotes:

Worse, we have constant admonitions against those who actually conform, as most human beings always have, to the general gender rule. Boys who behave like boys have always behaved are suddenly displaying “toxic masculinity” and must be reprogrammed from the get-go.

"Constant admonitions" against people who conform to Westernized gender roles? Again, from whom? And if they're in such minute numbers as to be unseen by me -- even on tumblr -- why are we discussing them as a legitimate parellel to the GOP? His rationale of "boys will be boys" is hyperlinked to an article about a small subsect of men whose toxified masculinity lends them to physical abuse and violence, specifically pertaining to the Pulse shooter.

Girls who like pink and play with Barbies are somehow not fully female until they’ve seen the recent Wonder Woman movie or absorbed the stunning and brave decision to make Doctor Who a woman. We have gone from rightly defending the minority to wrongly problematizing the majority.

"We, we, we." He's criticizing our larger culture, not just a minority, despite what you've taken away, Greatguardian. And his criticism rings utterly false and hyperbolic.

He goes on for half-a-dozen paragraphs about the on-going cultural abolition of gender, which simply isn't happening. Again, he's conflating the breaking of specific gender limitations (colors, toys, careers) [happening] with the vilification of masculinity and its role in the overarching goal of the eradication of all gender roles [not happening].

Transgender people exist and should be treated with absolutely the same human respect, decency, and civil equality as anyone else. But they don’t disprove traditional notions of gender as such — which have existed in all times, places, and cultures in human history and prehistory, and are rooted deeply in evolutionary biology and reproductive strategy.

The bolded is complete lunacy. To say that Westernized concepts of gender roles have been the law of the land, all lands, across all time periods is . . . a special kind of revisionist history.

The added problem with this war on nature is the backlash it inevitably incurs. There’s a reason so many working-class men find it hard to vote for Democrats any more. And there’s a reason why a majority of white women last year voted for a man who boasted of sexual assault if the alternative was a triumph for contemporary left-feminism. You can’t assault the core identity of most people’s lives and then expect them to vote for you.

Again, he quotes this elusive "war on nature," implying that he is not discussing any small minority of "the left," but the majority of it. To say nothing of his disregard for innumerable variables that played a role in this election cycle.

You'll notice, though, that he does refer to the election cycle? He's paralleling the GOP not with this small group of young people YOU think he is, but with the democratic party as an institution, as if anti-vaxxers had performed a coup d'etat over the party that only relatively recently adopted LGBT rights as a core tenet.

[Arkanna]

I'm willing to accept a lot of things, but gender fluidity is where I get lost, as well. I'm sorry but it's bullshit.

[Yuri-G]

I'm willing to accept a lot of things, but gender fluidity is where I get lost, as well. I'm sorry but it's bullshit.

It's not bullshit, but you're free to believe what you like.

[Guitarman]

My personal beliefs of the whole thing aside, I would love if society as a whole could move the gender identity to a new term; i feel like there's a boatload of confusion because gender and sex are inexorably intertwined in peoples minds. Never happen, but one can dream.

[Galkaeater]

How can one know one feels like a woman without ever being a woman?

[Mertron]

i feel like chicken tonight

[EternityEnd]

How can one know one feels like a woman without ever being a woman?

"How can one be attracted to the same sex? It's unnatural, because I'm not!"

Society always takes time to adapt and accept things to which they can't personally relate, but others experience.

[Guitarman]

i feel like chicken tonight

Holy fuck the nostalgia bomb wrecked my brain.

[Mertron]

Holy fuck the nostalgia bomb wrecked my brain.

LIKE CHICKEN TONIGHT

[Greatguardian]

I stand behind everything I said in my original dissection of the article, which was substantially more than his monolithic language.

His comparison is flawed from top-to-bottom. His article begins by annotating the flaws with the current GOP government's actions, and then attempts to draw a parallel with the left, but his parallel is to a tiny fraction of young adults and college students, which has no basis in reality for the democratic party as a political entity.

This is simply not a realistic characterization of the modern Democratic party. Sure, the people in power tend to be better educated and more moderate than portions of the base, but it's become far easier for extreme elements to hijack public discourse in this country than it was ten or twenty years ago. Underestimating the political clout of young people is an American tradition but it's always been a dangerous one. You're not going to see extreme progressive policies being passed in Texas or Oklahoma, but the political atmosphere in places like Pittsburgh and Minneapolis is worlds apart.

His entire critique of the left is also inseparably married to his own misunderstandings of sex, gender, and sexuality, and predicated on the unsubstantiated lie that transgender people are endeavoring to erase gender completely. Which, again, makes no sense, because transgenderism is indelibly about gender, just as sexuality is about sex (not gender, or gender roles, although some gender roles can be preferential to people). Let's remember some quotes:

I didn't read that as an attack on transgendered individuals directly, but rather on LBGTQ activists and allies in general who have trouble with contradictory thinking. This is not a new criticism of LBGTQ activism and sexually progressive thought.

"Constant admonitions" against people who conform to Westernized gender roles? Again, from whom? And if they're in such minute numbers as to be unseen by me -- even on tumblr -- why are we discussing them as a legitimate parellel to the GOP? His rationale of "boys will be boys" is hyperlinked to an article about a small subsect of men whose toxified masculinity lends them to physical abuse and violence, specifically pertaining to the Pulse shooter.

Again, not being seen by you in the areas of the internet you frequent and the part of the country you live in doesn't really amount to much. This is a pretty big country. It's pretty diverse. The metropolitan south is extremely moderate compared to pretty much anywhere else you could be living.

"We, we, we." He's criticizing our larger culture, not just a minority, despite what you've taken away, Greatguardian. And his criticism rings utterly false and hyperbolic.

He goes on for half-a-dozen paragraphs about the on-going cultural abolition of gender, which simply isn't happening. Again, he's conflating the breaking of specific gender limitations (colors, toys, careers) [happening] with the vilification of masculinity and its role in the overarching goal of the eradication of all gender roles [not happening].

See above. You're vastly underestimating the number of people who think this way. My point earlier wasn't that shitty college students could buy into this sort of nonsense. My point was that shitty college students in Texas could buy into this sort of nonsense without blinking an eye. My students are not exactly the liberal vanguard. These are not strange, extreme concepts to them. While people like us continue to age with the values we championed in our early 20's, ideas like this are gradually being normalized in younger generations.

The bolded is complete lunacy. To say that Westernized concepts of gender roles have been the law of the land, all lands, across all time periods is . . . a special kind of revisionist history.

Again, he quotes this elusive "war on nature," implying that he is not discussing any small minority of "the left," but the majority of it. To say nothing of his disregard for innumerable variables that played a role in this election cycle.

You'll notice, though, that he does refer to the election cycle? He's paralleling the GOP not with this small group of young people YOU think he is, but with the democratic party as an institution, as if anti-vaxxers had performed a coup d'etat over the party that only relatively recently adopted LGBT rights as a core tenet.

You don't have to be the majority of the democratic party to be the more relevant or important constituency to address. The moderate left is not in a great place right now. In-fighting nearly tore the party apart last year and losing every branch of government didn't help matters any. I expect to start seeing a lot more swings in policy and primaries from the left going into 2018 - especially since progressives know they're not going to lose any moderate votes to the modern GOP.

[Yuri-G]

How can one know one feels like a woman without ever being a woman?

How do you know you feel like a man? What does it mean to feel like a man, or to identify as one? Are you aware of your male identity? What is a man?

Spoiler: show

a miserable pile of secrets

Spoiler: show

I'm so sorry, that was low-hanging fruit

[Fiye]

My personal beliefs of the whole thing aside, I would love if society as a whole could move the gender identity to a new term; i feel like there's a boatload of confusion because gender and sex are inexorably intertwined in peoples minds. Never happen, but one can dream.

You mean how we wanted something that symbolized gay unions but didn't want to call it marriage.

[Guitarman]

You mean how we wanted something that symbolized gay unions but didn't want to call it marriage.

And people wonder why there isn't more acceptance? smh.

[Fiye]

And people wonder why there isn't more acceptance? smh.

Simply put: