PC Principal thread

[NynJa]

But we're not talking about someone who's admitting to pretending for fun. We're talking about a person who (supposedly) legitimately believes he is actually a 6 year old. The law simply hasn't had an opportunity to react to this new development.

It's also illegal to fuck a retarded person, because they lack the mental capacity to give consent, and this person is pretty obviously retarded, so there's always that to consider.

Except he doesnt
He "identified" as an 8 year old, then decided to "identify" as a 6 year old because the granddaughter wanted to be the older sibling.

The whole premise of identification is that its something hardwired into your brain. Transgenders dont wake up and identify as their opposite gender because it suits the whims of others.

[Blubbartron]

Except he doesnt
He "identified" as an 8 year old, then decided to "identify" as a 6 year old because the granddaughter wanted to be the older sibling.

The whole premise of identification is that its something hardwired into your brain. Transgenders dont wake up and identify as their opposite gender because it suits the whims of others.

Yeah, I agree that this guy is pretty full of shit and is just trying to lie his way out from under the burden of all the responsibilities he brought on himself. However, the concept is something worth discussing, in my opinion. This is the way things are going with identity politics, and if we're cool with identifying as a different gender, we should flesh out what other stuff we think is ok. Is there a line or isn't there one? Am I actually an attack helicopter? That sort of stuff is worth thinking about.

At the end of the day, the core problem with identity politics is that it relies entirely on someone's ability to understand others and their ability to express themselves clearly to others. What does it mean to feel like a man? What does it mean to feel like a woman? What does it mean to feel black, or Asian, or Indian? What does it mean to feel like an adult, or a child, or an old fart yelling at kids to stay off his lawn? The more I think about these things, the more I'm beginning to think that there is no right answer. Because there's no right answer, no one can reasonably claim to feel like anything other than what they are. The very notion of trans-anything becomes ludicrous.

[Gredival]

At the end of the day, the core problem with identity politics is that it relies entirely on someone's ability to understand others and their ability to express themselves clearly to others. What does it mean to feel like a man? What does it mean to feel like a woman? What does it mean to feel black, or Asian, or Indian? What does it mean to feel like an adult, or a child, or an old fart yelling at kids to stay off his lawn? The more I think about these things, the more I'm beginning to think that there is no right answer. Because there's no right answer, no one can reasonably claim to feel like anything other than what they are. The very notion of trans-anything becomes ludicrous.

The counter-argument to your point is right above you in Nynja's post.

The fact that someone pretending to be 10 can at certain moments, such as when faced with criticism about their lifestyle, elevate themselves back to normal adult intelligence and justify their actions indicates they don't "identify" as 10. They simply want to pretend they are 10. And part of our understanding of freedom and liberty is that, within certain limits, people should have the freedom to do something like that in their own free time.

Comparatively, a transgender woman or man doesn't get to turn off/on how they feel. Not all men or women think the same way, but there are basic innate differences between the sexes such that we believe that if we could change your sex with a magic science gun and the ONLY thing it changed about you was your sex, you would still at some basic level feel like a different person. It's the difference between not being able to express the persona you prefer to exhibit to the rest of the world (i.e. pretending to be 10) versus not being able to express the actual default mode of your mind.

I'd argue that transgender may in fact be the only legitimate instance of this. To argue for the existence of transracials is to say that, at some basic level, you experience the world innately differently as white/black/Asian/Latino/etc. -- not just that the experience of living is different in virtue of race and how people treat you for it, or that there are some things certain races have to deal with that others don't, but that it feels different to just *be* a different race. And I don't see how that is scientifically conceivable that people experience life differently as different races in a way that isn't accounted for solely by how our physical differences between the races affect us and how other people treat us. Transracials seem to be more akin to the person that wants to pretend to be 10: they have a certain preferred way of expressing themselves, it's one that generates disapproval in normal society, and they want acceptance.

[Ragnus]

http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7494

Ohio University students demand police investigation after peers mock safe-spaces

[TheDirtyHobo]

Comparatively, a transgender woman or man doesn't get to turn off/on how they feel. Not all men or women think the same way, but there are basic innate differences between the sexes such that we believe that if we could change your sex with a magic science gun and the ONLY thing it changed about you was your sex, you would still at some basic level feel like a different person. It's the difference between not being able to express the persona you prefer to exhibit to the rest of the world (i.e. pretending to be 10) versus not being able to express the actual default mode of your mind.

Devil's advocate: Who's to say he doesn't always feels like an 8 year old, but possesses the ability to acts his own age to conform to societal expectation in the same way that someone who is trans can remain closeted by acting another gender for decades to try to minimize ridicule?

[Yuri-G]

http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7494

Ohio University students demand police investigation after peers mock safe-spaces

I particularly enjoyed this part:


'“lmao trigger warning i’m [sic] going to beat the shit outta [sic] whoever wrote that bullshit on the wall,” [a student] said.'


safe space... but only if you agree with us. otherwise we'll beat the shit out of you. also,


'“We can start w/ a mandatory investigation because trigger warning is literally a threat,” one student tweeted at her campus police department.'


no, it's not.

[Blubbartron]

I'd argue that transgender may in fact be the only legitimate instance of this. To argue for the existence of transracials is to say that, at some basic level, you experience the world innately differently as white/black/Asian/Latino/etc. -- not just that the experience of living is different in virtue of race and how people treat you for it, or that there are some things certain races have to deal with that others don't, but that it feels different to just *be* a different race. And I don't see how that is scientifically conceivable that people experience life differently as different races in a way that isn't accounted for solely by how our physical differences between the races affect us and how other people treat us. Transracials seem to be more akin to the person that wants to pretend to be 10: they have a certain preferred way of expressing themselves, it's one that generates disapproval in normal society, and they want acceptance.

I don't think there's sufficient reason to believe that men and women experience the world in such a different fashion as for their to be some immense divide. Women are just people too.

edit: To expand more clearly, in order to be able to say that women and men experience the world objectively differently, one would have to know how someone of another gender experiences the world, and that is plainly impossible. We have a word for this problem, and it's qualia. Qualia are internal, subjective feelings. They simply can't be described perfectly to other people. It's the age old "is your red my red" conundrum.

[Niiro]

One could argue that there are observable, quantifiable differences in the way the brains of men and women function, meaning their life experience is not universal.

[Blubbartron]

One could argue that there are observable, quantifiable differences in the way the brains of men and women function, meaning their life experience is not universal.

I would agree that's the case, but does this mean that females who think logically (like a man) are transgendered? Are tomboys who don't go for feminine bullshit transgendered? The vast differences between people of the same gender mean that there is nothing that individually, or collectively, makes someone a man or a woman. Which still leads us to the conclusion that "feeling like a man" or "feeling like a woman" is a ridiculous notion.

There definitely are statistical norms for behavior (occasionally based on biology), for all of the things we've discussed. There are norms for gender, race, and age. How many of the norms do you have to fall into for a categorization to be justified? I trust you can see the absurdity in this line of thinking.

[Gredival]

Devil's advocate: Who's to say he doesn't always feels like an 8 year old, but possesses the ability to acts his own age to conform to societal expectation in the same way that someone who is trans can remain closeted by acting another gender for decades to try to minimize ridicule?

The distinction here is that being closeted is a deception you are taking on. Acting like an adult even though your preferred persona is a child is a reversion to your "normal" state. There's no deception. You don't have to pretend. The fact you can act like adult means you are an adult even if you don't ordinarily choose that persona.

You may be able to sincerely say "This isn't me" in the sense that it isn't who you truly want to me, it isn't how you want to live, etc. But you can't say that it isn't you in the way that a Jessica says that James was someone she never was.

[Blubbartron]

The fact you can act like adult means you are an adult even if you don't ordinarily choose that persona.

In a parallel universe:

The fact you can act like a man means you are a man even if you don't ordinarily choose that persona.

You're aware of how poor your argument is, right?

[Niiro]

I would agree that's the case, but does this mean that females who think logically (like a man) are transgendered? Are tomboys who don't go for feminine bullshit transgendered? The vast differences between people of the same gender mean that there is nothing that individually, or collectively, makes someone a man or a woman. Which still leads us to the conclusion that "feeling like a man" or "feeling like a woman" is a ridiculous notion.

There definitely are statistical norms for behavior (occasionally based on biology), for all of the things we've discussed. There are norms for gender, race, and age. How many of the norms do you have to fall into for a categorization to be justified? I trust you can see the absurdity in this line of thinking.

I think you're overthinking it a bit, it just comes down to how the person, personally feels.

There are many aspects of masculinity and femininity that either gender can exhibit, a man can be feminine and still be comfortable being a man and a woman can be masculine and still be comfortable being a woman, unless the person feels as if they're body and mind are mismatched to the point where they don't belong in their own body then there's no reason to consider them transgendered.

[Gredival]

In a parallel universe:



You're aware of how poor your argument is, right?

No because the frame of reference in this conversation is always "the default." When we're talking about transgender persons, we are considering their identified gender as one of their fixed aspects in their state of mind. In this respect, acting their sex is a deliberate alteration. Comparatively the "default" mode for the person that wants to be younger than they are is their true age, whether or not that's what they like most, feel comfortable as, etc. When they have to, or choose to, act their age they do not have to pretend to be older; they are older.

tl;dr For the "trans-age" person, being younger/older is a mask they prefer. For the transgender person, their born sex is a mask they feel forced into.

[Yuri-G]

Transgender is not about feeling, and I wish people would quit saying that. I think the word "feel" cheapens the experience. Transgendered people, the really bad cases, are convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are in the wrong body and it causes them unmanageable levels of discomfort. My best guess as someone who is not transgendered is that it's similar to body dysmorphic disorder wherein a person might feel so strongly that their left leg is not supposed to exist that they will actually (in some cases) chop the damn thing off just to get rid of it. It goes beyond feeling and into the realm of those compulsions that are driven by our very core experience.

[Blubbartron]

Transgender is not about feeling, and I wish people would quit saying that. I think the word "feel" cheapens the experience. Transgendered people, the really bad cases, are convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are in the wrong body and it causes them unmanageable levels of discomfort. My best guess as someone who is not transgendered is that it's similar to body dysmorphic disorder wherein a person might feel so strongly that their left leg is not supposed to exist that they will actually (in some cases) chop the damn thing off just to get rid of it. It goes beyond feeling and into the realm of those compulsions that are driven by our very core experience.

But those people are objectively crazy, and we prevent them from harming themselves for good reason. The same way we hospitalize anorexics and bulimics who are starving themselves literally to death. So why do transgendered people get support and these other people get their freedoms taken away? It's just so arbitrary.

[Niiro]

I would refer to Andal's self quote from earlier, there's a (clinical) difference between gender dysphoria and body dysmorphic disorder (emphasis by me).

if you're going to use clinical psychology terms you should probably be aware of modern clinical psychology. transsexualism, or as American psychology calls it gender dysphoria (previously gender identity disorder), is considered a medical condition in the DSM-V AND ICD-10 (respectively the American and international Bibles of mental illness diagnostics) but is a separate condition from body dysmorphic disorder, and itself is no longer considered a disorder.

BDD is primarily an anxiety disorder with mild underpinnings of delusion that causes individuals to obsess over a distorted self-image, one out of whack with any objective appraisal and independent of the actual physical state of the individual. there has been a mild push of late to reclassify anorexia nervosa as a subtype of body dysmorphia and for purposes of illustration it exemplifies the most salient feature of BDD. how skinny the individual is or will become is irrelevant to the discomfort the individual feels as a result of the disorder. you can see the contrast with transsexuals who generally do not desire to get more male or female than any human being could ever become.

most pertinently, contrasted with the internal source of distress for body dysmorphic disorder it is now widely accepted that the distress of gender dysphoria is not an intrinsic part of being transgender but is the result of the remaining societal stigma that accompanies the condition. that is to say one can have gender dysphoria and be perfectly well-adjusted and healthy psychology whereas BDD is by definition mental illness.

Whether or not you agree with this assessment is different, but the distinction is fairly clear.

It's easy to forget but not all transsexuals do or event want to undergo gender reassignment surgery, many would be happy to just be accepted as they are.

[TheDirtyHobo]

No because the frame of reference in this conversation is always "the default." When we're talking about transgender persons, we are considering their identified gender as one of their fixed aspects in their state of mind. In this respect, acting their sex is a deliberate alteration. Comparatively the "default" mode for the person that wants to be younger than they are is their true age, whether or not that's what they like most, feel comfortable as, etc. When they have to, or choose to, act their age they do not have to pretend to be older; they are older.

tl;dr For the "trans-age" person, being younger/older is a mask they prefer. For the transgender person, their born sex is a mask they feel forced into.

I agree with you on the point, I just think this particular line of argument is weak. If someone expresses two different states, you can't simply decide which one is the "default" and which one is a "persona." Elsewise you could transpose the argument to

When they have to, or choose to, act their sex they do not have to pretend to be male; they are male.

Which is the kind of shit transphobes spout.

[Gredival]

I agree with you on the point, I just think this particular line of argument is weak. If someone expresses two different states, you can't simply decide which one is the "default" and which one is a "persona." Elsewise you could transpose the argument to



Which is the kind of shit transphobes spout.

The argument isn't going to convince a skeptic, but the problem is there's no argument that could. If you don't believe the person is, in their mind, a man/woman despite their body being female/male, there's no other argument that will convince you of the legitimacy of their identity.

The idea of choice vs. innate identity is at the core of one's conception of LBGT peoples. The idea of being gay by "default" vs. by choice is no different than whether one thinks a transgender person is male/female by choice or default.

[jacobs67]

My best guess as someone who is not transgendered is that it's similar to body dysmorphic disorder wherein a person might feel so strongly that their left leg is not supposed to exist that they will actually (in some cases) chop the damn thing off just to get rid of it. It goes beyond feeling and into the realm of those compulsions that are driven by our very core experience.

That's not really Body Dysmorphic Disorder. BDD is more like when some huge bodybuilder looks in the mirror and thinks they're tiny so they start using steroids to get even bigger and bigger because they literally see themselves differently in the mirror. Or a normal-looking person who thinks their face is horribly ugly and disfigured and they constantly look in the mirror every minute and pick apart their flaws and obsess about it. Or a skinny person who looks in the mirror and sees themselves as fat and they obsessively exercise and starves themselves to lose weight and still thinks they look fat (this is of course co-morbid with anorexia)

Someone wanting to chop off their leg is some other psychological problem entirely, there's no one thinking "Damn I look like an ugly freak with two legs, if only I could be a beautiful one-legged goddess"

[Churchill]

I will never consider someone who is born a man to ever be anything but a man.

You can be an effeminate male who is afraid to just admit they are gay, but I will still consider you a male.