PC Principal thread

[thetruepandagod]

What do those things cause in fetuses? The effects of FAS are really well-documented, and range from physical deformity to psychological and neurological problems (aggression, lowered IQ, etc). I don't know enough about the things you just mentioned to judge how it compares to the effects of alcohol.

I would suggest you google it, as both are a hot issue now.

Also you can blame your mom for your small dick if you are born in New York now. As phthalates levels are quite high there.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3862078/

[archibaldcrane]

Aspirin's good for the heart too, enough of it will still kill me.

But would you call it a poison?

[kuronosan]

It is also an important trait for parents to have to recognize that even though they are parents they are not perfect and they can't and will not have perfect self restraint 100% of the time and trying to hold yourself to an impossible standard does more emotional harm to your kids in the long run than good. Parents are not perfect they are still humans in addition to being parents.

Well, let me chime in and say NO FUCKING ALCOHOL WHILE PREGNANT.

[archibaldcrane]

what are the health benefits for a fetus? I'm pro-choice but if you are going to ingest trash that would hurt the child, go ahead and pay the $600 and get that dealt with.

None that I know of, wasn't talking about fetuses.

[BerenTebogo]

But would you call it a poison?

I would absolutely call too high of a dose toxic, yes.

Paracelsus (1493–1541), the father of toxicology, once wrote: "Everything is poison, there is poison in everything. Only the dose makes a thing not a poison"[5] (see median lethal dose). The law defines "poison" more strictly. Substances not legally required to carry the label "poison" can also cause a medical condition of poisoning.

[BerenTebogo]

The whole point of the "alcohol is a poison" statement/discussion is that it is demonstrably poisonous at levels frequently reached by people just using it recreationally. It isn't the same as someone taking 200 tablets of Acetaminophen or literally drinking themselves to death with water, nor is it as poisonous as drinking bleach.

So in terms of realistic and practical dosage, yes, it is poisonous. Is 1 drink going to kill you? Obviously not, but then again, nobody is saying that.

[jacobs67]

It's definitely all about the dose, water and even oxygen can kill you if you drink too much/breathe too much of it (pure oxygen, anyway)

[dasva]

The whole point of the "alcohol is a poison" statement/discussion is that it is demonstrably poisonous at levels frequently reached by people just using it recreationally. It isn't the same as someone taking 200 tablets of Acetaminophen or literally drinking themselves to death with water, nor is it as poisonous as drinking bleach.

So in terms of realistic and practical dosage, yes, it is poisonous. Is 1 drink going to kill you? Obviously not, but then again, nobody is saying that.

Well a lot of people over drink recreationally... the dosages being discussed here though tend to have overall positive effects

[archibaldcrane]

I would absolutely call too high of a dose toxic, yes.

Not what I asked, I'm obviously just fucking with semantics here.

If the dose makes the poison, then unless something is harmful at any dose I think it is silly to universally call it a poison - whether alcohol or aspirin or water.

[BerenTebogo]

Well a lot of people over drink recreationally... the dosages being discussed here though tend to have overall positive effects

Literally only for red wine and even those studies are being contested recently (same with dark chocolate effects). Having 1-2 beers a night has, up to the most recent medical studies I know of, demonstrated no benefit whatsoever beyond control. Same for liquor.

"Tend to have overall positive effect" is also about the most full of shit thing you could possibly say in this situation. It acts as a blood thinner and helps reduce heart disease in people who are old and whose arteries are full of shit. That says nothing about what it is doing to any other organ on your body. Even 1-2 glasses of wine combined with certain diets or medications can lead to ulcers.

I get that feeling justified about drinking is nice and all. I personally love to get blackout drunk from time to time. Deluding yourself about it is p dumb though.

[BerenTebogo]

Not what I asked, I'm obviously just fucking with semantics here.

If the dose makes the poison, then unless something is harmful at any dose I think it is silly to universally call it a poison - whether alcohol or aspirin or water.

See my follow-up post where I discussed it being poisonous at doses frequently imbibed for recreation. 1-2 drinks could not reasonably called poisonous in the colloquial sense, but 4 drinks a night? Or 2-3 nights a week with 6-8 drinks? 100% absolutely.

Also literally nothing is universally harmful at any dose, bleach, arsenic, ricin, etc. There are amounts of bleach you could drink every day for the rest of your life and be fine.

[archibaldcrane]

Literally only for red wine and even those studies are being contested recently (same with dark chocolate effects). Having 1-2 beers a night has, up to the most recent medical studies I know of, demonstrated no benefit whatsoever beyond control. Same for liquor.

"Tend to have overall positive effect" is also about the most full of shit thing you could possibly say in this situation. It acts as a blood thinner and helps reduce heart disease in people who are old and whose arteries are full of shit. That says nothing about what it is doing to any other organ on your body. Even 1-2 glasses of wine combined with certain diets or medications can lead to ulcers.

I get that feeling justified about drinking is nice and all. I personally love to get blackout drunk from time to time. Deluding yourself about it is p dumb though.

Read the vox article I linked - source of the alcohol is irrelevant.

And that only makes sense - we know alcohol is a blood thinner, why would the source matter?

[Tarage]

This conversation is poisonous.

[Modoru]

This conversation is poisonous.

You could call it... toxic to the community.

[dasva]

Read the vox article I linked - source of the alcohol is irrelevant.

And that only makes sense - we know alcohol is a blood thinner, why would the source matter?

Red wine also had the additional benefits from the resveratrol from the grapes

[Byrthnoth]

Resveratrol is also in a bunch of other shit. People talk about it being in wine because they want some reason to believe wine is good for them. Also, alcohol isn't the only blood thinner and blood thinner usage has been related to shit like deafness and excessive bleeding.


Solly folks. Booze isn't particularly good for you.

[Blubbartron]

I'm honestly baffled that the conversation even made it this far. It honestly doesn't matter if alcohol is good or bad for an adult in moderation. That's a pointless red herring and anyone bringing it up should be told to go fuck themselves. The reason we're talking about alcohol is because a pregnant woman was trying to drink it. The *only* thing that matters is how detrimental it will be to the infant. So far the science ranges from slightly detrimental in moderation to "we're not really sure." The only logical conclusion is that pregnant woman should be banned from drinking until we know how much is reasonably safe for them to drink without impacting the fetus. This isn't a complicated matter of ethics. Pregnant women shouldn't intentionally do anything that harms the fetus unless they're intending to terminate it.

[archibaldcrane]

What if I told you

That conversations evolve

[BerenTebogo]

What if I told you

That conversations evolve

No. They are only intelligently designed and we are straying from the path.

[dasva]

I'm still trying to take it a step further. Why stop at just the minor detrimental effects of alcohol let's explore all the junk people feed themselves. Proper nutrient levels. Life style choices that can effect thinks like oxygen uptake which have rather large impacts. What about all the various environmental toxins that are fine for adults and in fact in the majority of pregnant women. For example BPAs enough to effect child development are in just about everyone

But for extra fun let's get into potential causes of birth defects from things the parents (yes daddy too) do even before conception (though obviously they will also be bad during pregnancy too). There's been a bit of study shown that doing things like smoking even if you don't get cancer still causes damages to your dna that can get passed on. And then there is the whole can of worms that we are discovering that Epigenetic changes can indeed be passed down. So it seems like all those little things like lifestyle choices, disease history, various environmental exposures might be good/bad for your future children as well as you