PC Principal thread

[archibaldcrane]

Are we doing Irish slavery now? Lol

[Zetanio]

Indentured servitude.

[thetruepandagod]

British loyalists

[Marootsoobutsu]

I agree with that. Nothing's worse than literal genocide.

I would put slavery for America, genocide for the Spanish. America bears absolute guilt for much of its treatment of American Indians, but actual genocide was rarely an actual goal. There were individual generals who had it as an aim, and the Indian Wars were absolutely one-sided. But far, far more died from disease than from the total of all wars of conquest, and there is not only a lack of actual evidence of deliberate spreading of disease (the total claim of Small Pox Blankets comes from two post-scripts that were never followed up on, and in the context of the time, could not have had the sinister nature we now ascribe, simply because the actual understanding of spreading of disease didn't exist at the time of the letters), there is in fact abundant evidence that we tried very hard-- as official policy and as frequent social works, to stem the spread of disease. Serious historians have strongly discredited Isaac McCoy's claims of deliberate infestation, and McDougall's famous claim was not only never acted upon, but was deliberately shown as a sign of friendship-- Europeans took extraordinary efforts to stem the spreading of smallpox at every point they could. The primary guilt of America in dealing with American Indians is far more cultural extinction than biological... there were *definite* attempts to wipe out the cultural identity of American Indians, in large part because of a decisive desire *NOT* to commit genocide. There was widespread, often romantic adoration of them, and a desire to Christianize them.

The Spanish had no such compulsion (or very little such compulsion, save as a talking point with the Vatican), and *did* engage in systematic, whole-cloth enslavement and slaughter on a scale that is truly horrifying. Even so, disease did most of their work for them, accounting for (by some estimates) up to 90% of the total deaths in the New World-- between smallpox, influenza, the plague, cholera, malaria, tuberculosis, mumps, yellow fever, typhus, what happened here *dwarfed* what happened in Europe with the Plague. The Spanish *absolutely* carved up the weakened populations, extinguished entire people groups, and enslaved others with a brutal efficiency that even the South couldn't replicate with blacks (and they were very nearly uniquely brutal in their application of slavery). And their impact and devastation deserves more condemnation than American slavery does-- not because American slavery wasn't horrific (it is a monumental sin, and does deserve a special place because of its hypocrisy in a land founded on freedom), but because the scale of Spanish extermination was so monumental. It eclipsed American interactions by orders of magnitude, and was nearly devoid of conflicting moralities from Spain, whereas American Indians always had steadfast, vocal, and powerful advocates in every Presidency and legislature we had in Washington. The few times individuals and monasteries did intervene (and there were many Spanish individuals who did try to stem the tide of official brutality of the Spanish government), their efforts were short-lived and ultimately overwhelmed by the cruelty of the Conquistadors.

There were still wars, and "Indian Education" was phenomenally cruel, and remains the primary cause of continued poverty and poor education amongst tribal societies-- the abuse and flat-out-torture turned a people willing to accept American culture and education poisoned the last remnants of goodwill that too many could muster, and has festered as lingering distrust of education that still hasn't been cleared up in too many places. But we were never, ever, ever at a point of deliberate eradication of the American Indian as official policy, and the few generals who attempted to engage in it were almost-without-exception court marshaled for their efforts and left in disgrace. We have plenty of fault in our treatment of American Indians, but the sin of their genocide belongs to the Spanish, not to America. Not denying it happened, just pointing out who actually did it.

[thetruepandagod]

Bruh, don't leave out the Caribbean slave trade.

[Andalusian girls]

I would put slavery for America, genocide for the Spanish. America bears absolute guilt for much of its treatment of American Indians, but actual genocide was rarely an actual goal. There were individual generals who had it as an aim, and the Indian Wars were absolutely one-sided. But far, far more died from disease than from the total of all wars of conquest, and there is not only a lack of actual evidence of deliberate spreading of disease (the total claim of Small Pox Blankets comes from two post-scripts that were never followed up on, and in the context of the time, could not have had the sinister nature we now ascribe, simply because the actual understanding of spreading of disease didn't exist at the time of the letters), there is in fact abundant evidence that we tried very hard-- as official policy and as frequent social works, to stem the spread of disease. Serious historians have strongly discredited Isaac McCoy's claims of deliberate infestation, and McDougall's famous claim was not only never acted upon, but was deliberately shown as a sign of friendship-- Europeans took extraordinary efforts to stem the spreading of smallpox at every point they could. The primary guilt of America in dealing with American Indians is far more cultural extinction than biological... there were *definite* attempts to wipe out the cultural identity of American Indians, in large part because of a decisive desire *NOT* to commit genocide. There was widespread, often romantic adoration of them, and a desire to Christianize them.

The Spanish had no such compulsion (or very little such compulsion, save as a talking point with the Vatican), and *did* engage in systematic, whole-cloth enslavement and slaughter on a scale that is truly horrifying. Even so, disease did most of their work for them, accounting for (by some estimates) up to 90% of the total deaths in the New World-- between smallpox, influenza, the plague, cholera, malaria, tuberculosis, mumps, yellow fever, typhus, what happened here *dwarfed* what happened in Europe with the Plague. The Spanish *absolutely* carved up the weakened populations, extinguished entire people groups, and enslaved others with a brutal efficiency that even the South couldn't replicate with blacks (and they were very nearly uniquely brutal in their application of slavery). And their impact and devastation deserves more condemnation than American slavery does-- not because American slavery wasn't horrific (it is a monumental sin, and does deserve a special place because of its hypocrisy in a land founded on freedom), but because the scale of Spanish extermination was so monumental. It eclipsed American interactions by orders of magnitude, and was nearly devoid of conflicting moralities from Spain, whereas American Indians always had steadfast, vocal, and powerful advocates in every Presidency and legislature we had in Washington. The few times individuals and monasteries did intervene (and there were many Spanish individuals who did try to stem the tide of official brutality of the Spanish government), their efforts were short-lived and ultimately overwhelmed by the cruelty of the Conquistadors.

There were still wars, and "Indian Education" was phenomenally cruel, and remains the primary cause of continued poverty and poor education amongst tribal societies-- the abuse and flat-out-torture turned a people willing to accept American culture and education poisoned the last remnants of goodwill that too many could muster, and has festered as lingering distrust of education that still hasn't been cleared up in too many places. But we were never, ever, ever at a point of deliberate eradication of the American Indian as official policy, and the few generals who attempted to engage in it were almost-without-exception court marshaled for their efforts and left in disgrace. We have plenty of fault in our treatment of American Indians, but the sin of their genocide belongs to the Spanish, not to America. Not denying it happened, just pointing out who actually did it.

[Salodin]

I didn't know intent mattered in a discussion of "who did we fuck over more", but that was a nice history lesson. Still don't see how it's relevant.

[Andalusian girls]

the truth is always relevant, and it is worth remembering 90% of the American Indian genocide was inadvertently caused by disease transfer, and the bulk of the remainder was affected by European colonial powers prior to the existence of the United States. Americans and Canadians were and are obviously the greatest benefactors of the destruction of indigenous New World societies, but they exerted only tertiary agency in bringing such about.

that said conducting the suffering Olympics is rarely an eddifying endeavor, but Maroot's premise that no groupings in American history have suffered more than blacks and Indians is indisputable.

[Niiro]

and it is worth remembering 90% of the American Indian genocide was inadvertently caused by disease transfer

Mention of this reminded me of:



Has little to do with the topic at hand but an interesting watch anyway.

[Gadritan]

Native Americans. Native. Americans.



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[thetruepandagod]

Native Americans. Native. Americans.

What did he mean by this I wonder.

[Roranora]

Official policy, for sure, we feigned mild tolerance and understanding.

We took their way of life. Brutal murder might have been merciful comparatively. While it's moot to try to dick-measure atrocities, the Spanish no doubt pulled their own weight. Aand some of their descendants became Americans as our systematic land grab moved west. I question how much one can really differentiate between various Euro American settlers around this time. Sure, we came from different nations (and became different nations) but we came for the land, and we took it all. I concede I don't know what considerate conquering looks like. Alliterations and oxymorons.

Personally I was always more disturbed by the bison slaughter than the supposed deliberate smallpox infestation. It's interesting to learn it's refuted by many historians.

I agree American guilt is worse, and it's because we did have admiration for them at the same time.


Re: slavery, we were definitely the 'best.' No other country grew its number of slaves like the US did. PBS made a great series that highlights this. We bred them far more deliberately. Clearly we had a surplus when babies became alligator bait. :/

[Andalusian girls]

Mention of this reminded me of:



Has little to do with the topic at hand but an interesting watch anyway.

Jared Diamond goes into much greater detail on this topic in Guns, Germs, and Steel. great read.

[Gredival]

inadvertently caused by disease transfer,

[Niiro]

Re: slavery, we were definitely the 'best.' No other country grew its number of slaves like the US did. PBS made a great series that highlights this. We bred them far more deliberately. Clearly we had a surplus when babies became alligator bait. :/

This begets the ugly question of what's worse:

To work your slaves to death and simply import more (as often happened in the Caribbean) or to keep them well enough to breed and then enslave their children and so on.

The former is more brutal but less drawn out, the latter is more humane(?) but the cruelty spans generations.

[zoobernut]

Jared Diamond goes into much greater detail on this topic in Guns, Germs, and Steel. great read.

Jared Diamond's books are amazing. I read Collapse for an anthropology class in college. There is a link at the end of that video to another video where CGP discusses Gun, Germs, and Steel.

[Jefe]

This begets the ugly question of what's worse:

To work your slaves to death and simply import more (as often happened in the Caribbean) or to keep them well enough to breed and then enslave their children and so on.

The former is more brutal but less drawn out, the latter is more humane(?) but the cruelty spans generations.

It depends, which philosophy are you willing to embrace: Kantian/Bentham&Millian?

[thetruepandagod]

Clearly we had a surplus when babies became alligator bait. :/

The science on abortion has truly come a long way.

[thetruepandagod]

Jared Diamond's books are amazing. I read Collapse for an anthropology class in college. There is a link at the end of that video to another video where CGP discusses Gun, Germs, and Steel.

http://www.livinganthropologically.c...rms-and-steel/

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAnthropo...thropological/

Mr undomesticable Africa Diamond.

Spoiler: show

[Tarage]

Wow, this thread went from mocking PC shit to becoming PC shit.