Reisenjima Mega Thread

[vivbiibasjiu]

I feel like most of the 'elemental weakness' mantra is inaccurate borderline misinformation. A mandragora is not an avatar. Unless it's actually been verified that it has a lower resistance to wind, I remain skeptical.

After eons of exping on the same enemies for years, you tend to learn elemental weakness through experience. Of course if you skipped everything through abyssea you would never know but yeah. After killing the 10,000th mandy in the jungle or crab in wherever you notice that certain elements resist a lot more than others, and through experience you can pretty reliably say what element an enemy is "weak" to, neutral to, or strong against. Think of it like the elemental resistance window in the equipment screen with 0 being neutral and negative number being weak and a high number being resistant, like if each enemy had a mini bar-spell on it or had shit like a bomb queen ring equipped if it were weak to fire. Every enemy in the game has hidden elemental resistance values for every element, it doesn't take rocket science to learn what enemies are susceptible to

[Dotsudoku]

A rocket scientist, no. Data, yes

[vivbiibasjiu]

Sure. Keep nuking a crab with water because you need "data" to prove it. Because experience and common sense isn't a thing!

[Fwahm]

Mob resistances vary enough that eyeballing is often plenty to find which elements work best, especially when they're higher level than you. It doesn't take writing down data to see differences in resistances when you nuke an IT++ bat with ice 10 times and get 9 full nukes, then nuke it with fire and get 0 full nukes, for example.

[vivbiibasjiu]

Exactly, you don't need to autistically sperg with spreadsheets to prove something that can be plainly observed

[Dotsudoku]

If ever there were two things that excelled at producing incorrect conclusions, it's "common sense" and "experience"

If positive and negative elemental resistances are that simple to observe across the board, it would take a hardly any time at all for you to record a result

[Dotsudoku]

I mean do I really need to list every last super obvious thing that we purported as fact for years and years that turned out to be incredibly false

[dasva]

Mob resistances vary enough that eyeballing is often plenty to find which elements work best, especially when they're higher level than you. It doesn't take writing down data to see differences in resistances when you nuke an IT++ bat with ice 10 times and get 9 full nukes, then nuke it with fire and get 0 full nukes, for example.

The funny thing about that is when a similar discussion was recently brought up in my ls high ilvl bats were actually brought up as an example with ice getting more resists than other non wind elements...

[Fwahm]

That was just a hypothetical example; I haven't nuked bats in years, and just picked random elements. FFXIclopedia says they're weak to wind and light.

[Byrthnoth]

I think the whole "weak to" terminology is inexact to the point that it's not worth arguing about. Elemental magic evasion and Elemental magic damage adjustment need to be split into different terms. Umbrils take enhanced Fire damage, but I haven't seen any particular evidence they're less resistant to fire than a theoretical neutral nuke. Same story with Acuex and Ice/Fire.




Anyway, the vast majority of elemental weaknesses on FFXIclopedia were eyeballing bullshit. For instance, back in the day Tauri and Fomor used to be listed as weak to water. No idea why. Almost everything you fought after level 51 was considered weak to Ice. Crabs were listed as weak to ice (you get Ice Staff and then go fight crabs in Kuftal.) Lizards were weak to ice. Everything was freaking weak to ice. I'm not sure if they've gotten some translated JP guide or something since then, but I know it used to be essentially hearsay.

[dasva]

I was just trying to say often one persons eyeballing can be the exact opposite of anothers. Been awhile since I read thru the old macc testing but iirc the limited amount done there wasn't huge differences except in the very obvious major resistance like say dark on imps which I seem to recall being around 80ish meva.

The minor ones people have seen if they do actually exist likely are small enough where different players will see different results and even the same player will have a hard time telling for certain. And of course with NMs SE just applies whatever the fuck values they want anyways

[Dotsudoku]

I think the whole "weak to" terminology is inexact to the point that it's not worth arguing about. Elemental magic evasion and Elemental magic damage adjustment need to be split into different terms. Umbrils take enhanced Fire damage, but I haven't seen any particular evidence they're less resistant to fire than a theoretical neutral nuke. Same story with Acuex and Ice/Fire.




Anyway, the vast majority of elemental weaknesses on FFXIclopedia were eyeballing bullshit. For instance, back in the day Tauri and Fomor used to be listed as weak to water. No idea why. Almost everything you fought after level 51 was considered weak to Ice. Crabs were listed as weak to ice (you get Ice Staff and then go fight crabs in Kuftal.) Lizards were weak to ice. Everything was freaking weak to ice. I'm not sure if they've gotten some translated JP guide or something since then, but I know it used to be essentially hearsay.

Your "packets" tell you all of that, did they?

[vivbiibasjiu]

I think the whole "weak to" terminology is inexact to the point that it's not worth arguing about. Elemental magic evasion and Elemental magic damage adjustment need to be split into different terms. Umbrils take enhanced Fire damage, but I haven't seen any particular evidence they're less resistant to fire than a theoretical neutral nuke. Same story with Acuex and Ice/Fire.

Anyway, the vast majority of elemental weaknesses on FFXIclopedia were eyeballing bullshit. For instance, back in the day Tauri and Fomor used to be listed as weak to water. No idea why. Almost everything you fought after level 51 was considered weak to Ice. Crabs were listed as weak to ice (you get Ice Staff and then go fight crabs in Kuftal.) Lizards were weak to ice. Everything was freaking weak to ice. I'm not sure if they've gotten some translated JP guide or something since then, but I know it used to be essentially hearsay.

Acuex have lower resistance to fire. They take normal damage from ice, but they heavily resist earth and water. Ice works but it's more of a neutral element. This is easily apparent after killing billions of them when capacity points were first introduced. A special area with acuex were among the highest level enemies in the game and had ridiculously high magic evasion at the time so fire worked a lot better until your magic accuracy was high enough to bring ice to the same level of resistance. If you were getting a lot of fire resists, your ice resists would be absolutely floored. This is readily apparent on any other enemy if you fight them a lot when they're stronger than you, I.E. an IT mandragora in a Yuhtunga jungle party. You learn what what they're "weak" to (weak as in have the least elemental resistance to, hence less resists, hence more damage) It's not "hearsay" just because you didn't read "packets" that spelled it out for you.

[Dotsudoku]

Whether you're right or wrong on a meta or individual basis, you're literally purporting hearsay.

This is not how facts are collected in this game(or anywhere else, for that matter). If it bothers you that the community rejects the anecdotes of someone comically ignorant to how this game works, you're free to change your methods or cry elsewhere

[Viar]

I think the whole "weak to" terminology is inexact to the point that it's not worth arguing about. Elemental magic evasion and Elemental magic damage adjustment need to be split into different terms. Umbrils take enhanced Fire damage, but I haven't seen any particular evidence they're less resistant to fire than a theoretical neutral nuke. Same story with Acuex and Ice/Fire.




Anyway, the vast majority of elemental weaknesses on FFXIclopedia were eyeballing bullshit. For instance, back in the day Tauri and Fomor used to be listed as weak to water. No idea why. Almost everything you fought after level 51 was considered weak to Ice. Crabs were listed as weak to ice (you get Ice Staff and then go fight crabs in Kuftal.) Lizards were weak to ice. Everything was freaking weak to ice. I'm not sure if they've gotten some translated JP guide or something since then, but I know it used to be essentially hearsay.

I have a 2008 version of JP job master guide, it has a section of monster data listed all the elemental and physical weakness of every mob type at that time.

It listed crab and lizard weak to ice. Crabs are weak to thunder and ice, lizards are weak to ice and wind.

It's official guide so I would assume it's correct.

I guess I can try to update the info to bg wiki? Although it will be a lot of work.

[Malithar]

They take normal damage from ice, but they heavily resist earth and water. Ice works but it's more of a neutral element...It's not "hearsay" just because you didn't read "packets" that spelled it out for you.

More hearsay bullshit, not even actively playing the game and I remember quite clearly ice doing double damage, not just a weakness or MEva shift, straight double damage. Go test it. And for the last part, how are you not wearing the faggot badge yet? Make a moron of yourself in Dev Tracker and now you're here bitching about packets again, in a post where you're wrong again.

[dasva]

I have a 2008 version of JP job master guide, it has a section of monster data listed all the elemental and physical weakness of every mob type at that time.

It listed crab and lizard weak to ice. Crabs are weak to thunder and ice, lizards are weak to ice and wind.

It's official guide so I would assume it's correct.

I guess I can try to update the info to bg wiki? Although it will be a lot of work.

It's probably correct.

Does the guide anywhere differentiate between resistance and sdts when talking about weak to? For the mobs you listed it doesn't matter definitely no sdts but for some they do and both SE and the players have been rather lax about differentiating between the 2 which is part of the confusion.

[Karbuncle]

Did I miss some context or specific enemy for this conversation(If the answer is yes, IGNORE ME!)? I thought enemies having Elemental Resistances was common knowledge? I.E Resistance to elements like we have in our equipment screen, not flat Damage- or Damage+, though some clearly have that trait as you can see in BST Familiars. I understand the want for data as its necessary to understanding and its a good thing to have, but it would a metric pain in the ass to test this to any conclusive degree, let alone on the amount of family types we have, so while it is hearsay, I'll be hard pressed to believe otherwise when there are clear examples of enemy elemental resistances present (Most undead, for one, being very resistant to any forms of darkness). I'm not saying we should forgo testing... all I know is i'll pass on it...

To clarify I mean elemental resistances like these >



NMs likely have their own unique parameters, and may be easier to test though... Also I thought SE mentioned at one point when calculating resistance rates for Skillchains like Light/Dark it chose the element the enemy was weakest too, implying enemies had elemental strengths and weaknesses?

Apologies if I'm missing something here but unless I'm mixing up the terminology being used this conversation is hurting my head.

Edit: If its about old wiki being wrong and a lot of the Weakness/Strengths being just eyeball fuckery, then yeah, I can see that, its likely most inaccurate information.

[vivbiibasjiu]

More hearsay bullshit, not even actively playing the game and I remember quite clearly ice doing double damage, not just a weakness or MEva shift, straight double damage. Go test it. And for the last part, how are you not wearing the faggot badge yet? Make a moron of yourself in Dev Tracker and now you're here bitching about packets again, in a post where you're wrong again.

Do you have reading comprehension difficulties? I said fire and ice both work (as in they do the same damage) but they resist fire less than ice. Ice is a neutral element. Acuex are obviously known to take increased magic damage from elements they are susceptible to. But fire is their true "weakness"

[vivbiibasjiu]

Did I miss some context or specific enemy for this conversation(If the answer is yes, IGNORE ME!)? I thought enemies having Elemental Resistances was common knowledge? I.E Resistance to elements like we have in our equipment screen, not flat Damage- or Damage+, though some clearly have that trait as you can see in BST Familiars. I understand the want for data as its necessary to understanding and its a good thing to have, but it would a metric pain in the ass to test this to any conclusive degree, let alone on the amount of family types we have, so while it is hearsay, I'll be hard pressed to believe otherwise when there are clear examples of enemy elemental resistances present (Most undead, for one, being very resistant to any forms of darkness). I'm not saying we should forgo testing... all I know is i'll pass on it...

To clarify I mean elemental resistances like these >



NMs likely have their own unique parameters, and may be easier to test though... Also I thought SE mentioned at one point when calculating resistance rates for Skillchains like Light/Dark it chose the element the enemy was weakest too, implying enemies had elemental strengths and weaknesses?

Apologies if I'm missing something here but unless I'm mixing up the terminology being used this conversation is hurting my head.

Edit: If its about old wiki being wrong and a lot of the Weakness/Strengths being just eyeball fuckery, then yeah, I can see that, its likely most inaccurate information.

Don't bother, common sense with FFXI players is not so common. People will continue to use water to nuke crabs until someone publishes for them a peer-reviewed double-blind study "proving" that they they are resistant to it, because what they see with their own eyes isn't real. Wonder how many times they've healed NMs with magic they absorb until they realize they absorb that element. "Stop nuking Ouryu with Earth, you're healing it!!!" "B-but, where's the data?!?"