Letter from the Producer LIVE Part XXVI

[Destinye]

It seems an unlikely coincidence that the content they "didn't have time to complete normally" just happened to be a huge jump in difficulty from... everything else ever that they did have a chance to complete normally?


modern MMO bruh

This is kind of an unfair comparison because of the nature of trendlines (as a starting point, 1.0 was far worse than 2.0 or 3.0), but it's hard to deny that 1.23 had a better trajectory than this game does right now.

ARR/HW reminds me of pokemon in a way when using this comparison. It's like Yoshi is constantly jamming the B button every update to prevent it from evolving.

[Ragns]

Can anyone find that pre-2012 interviews with Yoshi-P saying that that they required an insanely low number of subs (I think it was 50k?) to make FFXIV profitable.

Management is probably cutting on the FFXIV budget now that they're way beyond profitable and will be even more profitable if they only need 3 servers to keep the whole game alive. Kinda like what they did with FFXI by running all the servers into 1 single potato VM.

[Stef]

I think people mean compared to other MMO's they look understaffed. Other studios push out more content on the same 3 month cycle, some even with less revenue in monthly fees.

I’m sorry, but this is highly disingenuous. There are of course problems with the game, but you - along with a lot of BG - have almost completely mischaracterized them. You don’t even really know what it would take to make the game enjoyable for yourself let alone other players.

Name a single MMO on the market today that doesn’t have a vocal group of players that are dissatisfied with the amount and the type of content that is released. Heck, the subreddits for almost every single major released MMO is hemorrhaging reddit subs right now. Many felt that Guild Wars 2’s Heart of Thorns expansion was too small and incredibly grindy. A lot of players felt Warlords of Draenor had too few content patches and not enough content outside of raids. Many players are unhappy that SWTOR won’t be producing much (or any at all) high-end PvE content anymore, even if many are glad there’ll be more of a focus on story. FFXI players here on BG don’t exactly feel that the high-tier battles had much longevity, not to mention the pervasive sense that content patches are likely to feel even smaller than they already do to some going forward. I’m really curious where you think this promised land of “enough content” is - and more importantly: why aren’t you there? Is it ESO - the game that focuses mainly on PvP at endgame? Maybe Wildstar - the game designed for hardcore players that crashed hard at launch? Black Desert? And if you say “those are F2P/B2P games, they are expected to release less content” then what else is there? There’s really only one other successful subscription-only MMO out there and that’s WoW. None of these are bad games in the slightest, but the expectations of the vocal online players are out of whack.

The FFXIV devs release plenty of content that satisfies the majority of players, it just fails to satisfy the complainers. The reasons for this have very little to do with the amount of content and almost everything to do with how it’s designed. Here are a few relatively simple changes that might work better for these people:

• Bring back gear stats that Yoshi-P and the team had in 1.23 and add a few more to spice it up. Design gear to be relevant for at least an entire expansion.
• Turn hunts, the Diadem and treasure maps into FFXI-style, tiered VNM systems with popped bosses that drop tokens and high ilvl gear. Give each NM a mix of old dungeon boss mechanics and crank up the numbers to make them a decent challenge for groups of 8-24 players.
• Combine the 24- and 8-man raids into one with a relatively smooth progression curve with the first boss at something like a Garuda EX level of difficulty and the last at A3S. Use 24-man-type environments with trash in between bosses. Allow some flexibility as to group size. Tie in some interesting story that is gated behind these bosses.

Bam - now the complainers probably wouldn’t feel like there was too little content. They’d get something like 24 raid bosses + 7 primals every expansion. Hunts and Exploratory Missions would have mid-core bosses designed for larger groups of players that would give them a parallel progression path to complete with your FC. There’d be prestige in raiding and their gear wouldn’t be invalidated as quickly. We’d still get dungeons and dailies, the main story, crafting, mini-games, PvP, and all the other small things on top of this.

The problem is that this would leave the majority of the community stranded because it goes against many of the core design philosophies that have been present since 2.0 launched. Of course, the complainers realised this from day 1, but they cling to the hope that the devs will forsake their main demographic in favor of the small-but-vocal percentage that feel like you or I. They admonish anyone who is able to take distance from the game and enjoy something else between content patches as “casuals”, “fanboys” or “white knights” while they remain desperately chained to FFXIV in their self-imposed misery.

Instead, the devs have taken baby steps, shifting slowly towards our vision while trying to bring their main demographic along with them: they implemented Savage difficulty raids; they’re raising the ilvl of raid gear and trying to make materia more relevant; they’re bringing in parallel FC content in place of dungeons. But because they need to coax along the majority of the playerbase they can’t just drop all the stuff that those people enjoy in one go. So they drop a dungeon every patch, they start new content types off simple with plans to build onto them slowly. They make Alexander Normal easy to help newbies overcome their fear of even entering a “raid.” They introduce side activities to keep casual players occupied and things like the beginner’s hall with the aim to slowly but surely move players to a level similar to ours. But this is only met with more rage from the complainers - and no surprise: they knew the game wasn’t designed specifically for them from the very start and yet they kept playing it. Now the changes aren’t fast enough or sweeping enough.

It all boils down to this: do the devs design content for the majority or the minority? Should they make content for the people that enjoy what they’ve already put out or for the people who hate most of what they’ve created? Should they aim to satisfy most players who don’t have enough time to get through all of the content, or for those few that can burn through anything that is put out in a matter of a couple of weeks? The complainers aren’t easily satisfied, and even when they supposedly prefer a game over others on the market they are still able to summon incredible rage against the devs that made it. Why would the devs spend most of their time trying to satisfy players like this over everyone else? The complainers have proven time and time again across the MMO industry over the past decade or more that the effort it takes to keep them entertained simply isn’t worth it for any game developer.

TL;DR: There are of course problems with the game and modern MMOs in general, but the expectations of vocal online communities are largely out of whack. The angry complainers represent a small portion of the total playerbase and have proven time and time again across the MMO industry over the past decade or more that the effort it takes to keep them entertained simply isn’t worth it for any game developer.

[Ragns]

^ This looked semi-interesting but TLDR bro.

Hey guys, remember when Yoshi-P took over 1.X and started showing us very detailed roadmaps of the things to come for the next 12 months which they kept updated until the end of ARR? Maybe people would be less bitter if SE didn't go silent for almost a year and now people speculate with the bare info they have. We knew more of what was going on with ARR alpha and beta even under the NDA.

[Thiefami]

Your post contained more content than 3.1 and 3.15 combined

Short answer, the game has made poor design choices and it's heading in a bad direction.

You will always have complaints, can't please everyone, but that doesn't negate constructive criticism. The game certainly does not cater to a majority, the number of accounts vs active subs will show you that. Either way, there are things they can do to stretch what they already have - again, poor design choices and implementation, but they likely won't. So you have a sizeable amount of frustrated or dissatisfied customers.

A few games you've mentioned went ftp to avoid the brink of death, a direct cause of not listening to player feedback.

[Rocl]

adamantoise mount is gonna fly like gamera fuck the haters i'm subbed for life

[Taint]

adamantoise mount is gonna fly like gamera fuck the haters i'm subbed for life

Only FFXIV land do we get excited about an existing mount flying but put up with terrible gear/progression and abilities.

[Rocl]

That is exactly everything I said in my post, that is correct.

[Appie]

@Stef's very long post. I know what would make the game fun for me. It starts with not building endgame around a 8 man static, stupid weekly lockouts, some new mechanics in fights and not mostly rehash of old fights, dungeons being challenging and worth a fuck besides weekly caps. In game guide for jobs and dps parser. Learn people to get good, perhaps beginners hall will do this, we'll see.

As for comparing to other MMOs, the last expansion of WoW wasn't so hot then? Ok, but probably still more to do for endgame than 4 battles in a mechanical giant. Your ideas to improve other content to 'endgame' with high ilvl is nice and all, but would result in bitchin from the self proclaimed elites that people can get high ilvl gear from lesser content and making that content harder hurts the majority, so bitchin either way.

As a 'filthy casual' that I am forced to be SE is seriously losing money on people like me. Can't do 8 man static bullshit and said content is so stupid that SE themselves only test the fight for each phase, so won't PUG either. The so-called 'mid tier' content in the Void Ark is lacking in new mechanics and already bored me the second time I did it. First CT was a lot more fun. And all this combined with the fact that 4 battles provide the highest ilvl and anybody who doesn't do this is forced to wait 3 months for 'the casuals update' to get the same ilvl really kills my motivation to keep a sub going. Luckily for SE there are plenty of people who don't care how to play their job or get that gear and will nerf the content anyway if not enough people clear it.

[gaira]

i know this, or any, forum isn't a full representation of the state of the game, but it is sad that the only real activity is in the catch all complaint thread and laugh at OF thread. there just isn't anything worth discussing in the game.

[Destinye]

i know this, or any, forum isn't a full representation of the state of the game, but it is sad that the only real activity is in the catch all complaint thread and laugh at OF thread. there just isn't anything worth discussing in the game.

Could hop on over to the OF and take part in Next Top Model, complain about Lightning Event/Items, Say the game is perfect and tell people to not listen to the "toxic" raiders who demand the game dare have more end-game content.

[Akiyama]

My body is ready for turtle.

[arus2001]

i know this, or any, forum isn't a full representation of the state of the game, but it is sad that the only real activity is in the catch all complaint thread and laugh at OF thread. there just isn't anything worth discussing in the game.

A big part of this is just XIV being self-contained. Get a quest? You've usually got a good idea where to go next, either specific to dialogue or through map indicators. Meanwhile, XI would've been something like, "Go fetch me some Goobuue Dung!" with no hint of where. Okay, so you find some Goobuue in Zi'tah, but wait, they don't drop it! Only the high level ones in the tree might. For all the bitching people are apt here to bring up for not reading a wiki, watching a video, or whatever, the little things like that add up to lessened clutter. And I guess there's always that adage where the happy players are actually playing instead of haunting forums.

I know I've got White Knight in my blood, not so much for XIV specifically, but more a general "How the quiet casual may perceive things..." within a game, and that can obviously lead to conflict if someone thinks I'm out to compromise their high. And while it's easy to claim Mob Rule (or better pandering to the silent majority) would lead to a bunch of bad decisions, I'd just be mindful that any sort of in-game implementation actually wouldn't be spur of the moment. Even something as simple as a public test server could help refine concepts, presuming SE actually cared about player input and not just making sure we don't fall through floors or cures suddenly kill party members.

[Niiro]

In this case the lack of conversation is due to there being fucking nothing to talk about other than the lack of things to talk about (see: interesting content, see further: 200+ pages of the complaint thread).

The game has the depth of a spoon.

[BaneTheBrawler]

except spoons hold water

[The Stig]

Was this posted anywhere? I don't recall it:

Final Fantasy XIV was successfully relaunched as Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn in 2013 after the inauspicious release in 2010 - a first in MMORPG history. In this presentation, Naoki Yoshida will analyze the causes of the initial failures, and disclose some of the behind-the-scenes decisions/thoughts surrounding the importance of a relaunch, the creation of an MMORPG title within the short span of 2 years and 9 months, and the commitment to a specific business model.

[Lokus]

adamantoise mount is gonna fly like gamera fuck the haters i'm subbed for life

Relevant:

[Sho]

adamantoise mount is gonna fly like gamera fuck the haters i'm subbed for life

[Spider-Dan]

The only thing you can really say is that you preferred 1.23's battle system concept to 2.0's battle system.

That has almost nothing to do with it.

1.23 was the latest in a series of patches (starting from Yoshi's takeover) that almost entirely showed significant progress in each update. The trendline was that the game was rapidly improving.

ARR's sense of progress (i.e the sense of each update building on and improving the game) went almost horizontal after 2.3, and HW's sense of progress was basically a stair-step: a huge jump up at 3.0 release, and then flatline after that.

The problem is that this would leave the majority of the community stranded because it goes against many of the core design philosophies that have been present since 2.0 launched.

How is it that designing an endgame (<---this part is important) system that does not punish you for having more than or less than exactly 8 people would "leave the majority of the community stranded"?

How is it that designing a "hard" mode of FC-only content that requires max-level airships would leave "leave the majority of the community stranded" if it had any more added complexity than everything is the same but enemies have more HP?

You are making a lazy excuse. In no way would it ruin the rest of the game to simply fix some of the glaring problems of endgame.

[Elcura]

That has almost nothing to do with it.

1.23 was the latest in a series of patches (starting from Yoshi's takeover) that almost entirely showed significant progress in each update. The trendline was that the game was rapidly improving.

ARR's sense of progress (i.e the sense of each update building on and improving the game) went almost horizontal after 2.3, and HW's sense of progress was basically a stair-step: a huge jump up at 3.0 release, and then flatline after that..

1.23 showed progress for a game everyone knew was changing and had no real consequences. The only reason the "trend line" looked positive was because of 2.0 and if it took a year/year and a half for people to realise how the game was going to be that has little to do with the direction of the battle system, along then with 3.0.

There's nothing to suggest even if they kept 1.23's battle system that the direction of the rest of the game would be different as well. So aside from making shit up from your own personal bias (and cherry picking), what else is new?