Making a Murderer - Documentary - Netflix

**Oreth** · 2016-01-05 13:45

I didnt see a thread for this and had seen some conversations kick off in another thread so figured id make this for people to discuss etc if they want.

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Making a Murderer

Making a Murderer is an American web television series that first streamed on Netflix on December 18, 2015. The first season recounts the story of Steven Avery, a man who was imprisoned for sexual assault and attempted murder, and who was later exonerated, only to be subsequently accused of the murder of Teresa Halbach. The series was filmed over the course of ten years, with the creators moving back and forth from New York to Wisconsin during filming. The first episode was released on YouTube the same day the first season was released on Netflix to promote the series, something Netflix had not previously done for any other original programming. It was the second documentary series produced by Netflix, after Chef's Table, released earlier the same year.

Trailer

Episode 1

**TLDR - SPOILER SYNOPSIS**

Spoiler: show

Evidence Not Mentioned In Documentary - http://www.pajiba.com/netflix_movies...nt-present.php

Defense Attorney Recent Interviews

https://www.facebook.com/channel3000...3297186577060/

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**Oreth** · 2016-01-05 13:55

So throughout this whole documentary i was kind of annoyed at some of the stupidity I was watching and some of the things that were accepted / allowed to stand in court and what not. With all that said im no expert on the American Justice system and at the end of the day there is a young girl that was murdered so i dont really feel like im in the greatest of positions to be commenting on what is right or not especially when the documentary was made to reflect one side. But there are some glaring things that really bothered me....

Further Discussion

Spoiler: show

**Bregor** · 2016-01-06 10:05

Just finished watching episode 3 last night, I'll be back when it's all over to discuss, but Goddamn do they love the phone conversations with the family that go nowhere.

**GRT** · 2016-01-06 10:18

I think I'm pretty much through all five stages by now two weeks after watching it.

**kisada** · 2016-01-07 01:41

halfway through. i got some gripes but it's good so far.

btw that brunette journalist is hot.

**Xno Kappa** · 2016-01-07 08:30

Just got done with ep3. Wow. As an individual who's done countless subject interviews, how in the holy fuck did that interview of Brendan not get shredded by the defense!? He was spoon fed the narrative of whatever the fuck they wanted to hear.

This is super frustrating to watch.

**tyven** · 2016-01-07 08:54

Originally Posted by Bregor

Just finished watching episode 3 last night, I'll be back when it's all over to discuss, but Goddamn do they love the phone conversations with the family that go nowhere.

Yea

Yea?

I didn't do it

Fuck I love the way Wisconsin people talk to each other

**Bregor** · 2016-01-07 12:29

Originally Posted by Xno Kappa

Just got done with ep3. Wow. As an individual who's done countless subject interviews, how in the holy fuck did that interview of Brendan not get shredded by the defense!? He was spoon fed the narrative of whatever the fuck they wanted to hear.

This is super frustrating to watch.

It gets better, or worse depending on your perspective.

**Oreth** · 2016-01-07 14:51

The biggest issue iv actually had is some of the pieces of evidence that didnt make it into the documentary (Supposedly based on importance, which I would agree)

Spoiler: show

Essentially the prosecution state that Stevens non blood DNA (They suggest sweat but it cannot be proved) was found under the latch of Theresas Rav4 and despite everything else this shows he was at the car.The hood latch DNA is a big interest area for me though, especially given the time gap since the car was originally found to when they swab the car for the evidence. Whats very interesting about the latch hood DNA is that they only discovered this months later based on Brendans Confession. Below is the exact transcrip from that portion of the video:

From the March 1, 2006 transcript (page 603)
FASSBENDER: OK, what else did he do, he did somethin’ else, you need to tell us what he did, after the car is parked there. It’s extremely important. (pause) Before you guys leave that car.
BRENDAN: That he left the gun in the car.
FASSBENDER: That’s not what I’m thinkin’ about. He did something to that car. He took the plates and he, I believe he did something else in that car. (pause).
BRENDAN: I don’t know.
FASSBENDER:OK. Did he, did he, did he go and look at the engine, did he raise the hood at all or anything like that? To do something to that car?
BRENDAN: Yeah.
FASSBENDER: What was that? (pause)
WEIGERT: What did he do, Brendan?
WEIGERT: It’s OK, what did he do?
FASSBENDER: What did he do under the hood, if what’s what he did? (pause)
BRENDAN: I don’t know what he did, but I know he went under.
FASSBENDER: He did raise the hood? (Brendan nods “yes”) You remember that?
BRENDAN: Yeah.

So based on that transcript how can anyone not honestly look at that and think that he was led exactly down that path of questioning specifically to the hood itself. They even dismissed him for saying that Steven left the gun in the car, a statement itself which should completely dispute his statement about the latch as a whole because the gun wasnt found in the car. The only side to that is unless they found it there themselves prior but if that was the case why would they sit on that evidence for months and blatantly lie and say the only reason they found it was because of Brendan.Doesnt add up. Honestly nothing from either side really adds up!

I came across this really comprehensive theory on reddit, while that its just a theory its very interesting none the less... But RL isnt hollywood

Spoiler: show

It is my version of the Scott and Bobby theory, with a little more depth and every major piece of evidence mentioned.
I am personally a fan of the Scott and Bobby did it theory. They had motive, means, and opportunity.
Motive: Jealousy and hatred towards Steven Avery. The frame is on!

Means: Hunters with plenty of weapons available(including a .22 rifle that Scott tried to sell in the days after the murder), as well as weak alibis from each other only. It was their car that TH was on the property photographing, surely they knew she would be there.
Opportunity: With their weak alibis there is nothing to prove these two didn't drive off the property and sit in wait for TH. They are familiar with the gravel pits, where the second burn site is located. Clearly they have intimate knowledge of the Avery property.
The narrative that makes the most sense to me is they sat in wait for TH, captured and killed her (with their histories there certainly could have been a rape involved as well, but that cannot be proven one way or the other). They put her body in the back of her car and drove her to the gravel pits where they burned her body. They take the fire barrel from behind their house and load her ashes into it (missing a few pieces). They leave her car on the property in a place where it will be found, and quickly. That property was huge, there were plenty of places that car could have been hidden far more successfully (not to mention the crusher, which may have drawn unwanted attention in the middle of the night). They dump TH's ashes into the fire pit where Steven had a bonfire earlier that night, and put the fire barrel back behind their house (leaving ashes and small bone flecks in the barrel).
They know that when the ashes of a dead woman last seen with SA are found in his fire pit that that railroad is going to leave the station full steam ahead.

Scott and Bobby's roles in the murder and the case have basically come to an end, outside of their aggressive testimony against SA ,of course, in which Bobby is caught in a lie trying to make Steven look as bad as possible.
Now is when the Manitowoc count sheriffs department step up to the plate. They had nothing to do with the murder up to this point, but they see if for the opportunity it is. A chance to bury a $36 mil lawsuit, and put away a guy who had humiliated the department.

Colburn performs an illegal search of the Avery property and finds TH's car, calls it in to dispatch to make sure it is the right one clearly reading the license plate off to the dispatcher and then describing the vehicle. He knows he can't do anything with that evidence so he pulls out a screwdriver, removes the license plate (just in case any questions come up about him reading off the license plate number to dispatch) bends it up and throws it into a nearby car, grabs the key out of the ignition (maybe, possible the key is actually TH's spare, possible the brother/ex/roommate is in possession of it). The Manitowoc sheriff department approaches Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas with some ill gotten info. They tell them where to find TH's car on the Avery property, making sure the people sent to find it have a camera on them to record the find. A find that happens within 20 minutes of showing up to search a 40 acre property for a single car in a salvage yard of hundreds (thousands?). Admittedly the car isn't well hidden and is towards the front of the property. Does that hurt or help this theory though?
Calumet county sheriff deputy is "guarding" the site of TH's car, except at some point Lt. James Lenk "sneaks" by the guard before he begins logging anyone visiting the scene. While Lenk is on the scene the deputy begins logging visitors so he signs out as he leaves the scene at 2:41 pm (he testified in court that he wasn't on the Avery property that day until after 6:30 pm, signature proves that testimony false). What did he do while at the car? Plant blood evidence perhaps? The magic blood evidence that the criminal mastermind SA leaves behind after cleaning the car of any of his fingerprints and hair.

Now the state has physical evidence linking Steven to TH, and blood no less! Looks like an open and shut case. Just in case though they figure they better plant the key to the car was well, it plays well with the story that SA was hanging on to it so he could destroy the car later when him using the crusher wouldn't be out of the ordinary. Of course you don't drive a car into a crusher, you would use a front end loader for that job so SA really has no reason to hang onto the keys at this point (the car was parked a few hundred yards from the crusher initially), maybe it is his murder trophy!
Lenk done yet? Not quite yet, they haven't found a shred of TH's DNA in the proposed sites of the murder, neither SA's house nor garage. Better plant a bullet with a smidge of TH's DNA on it in the garage, just to remove any doubt. The expert in the trial mentioned she so no blood on the bullet, but found nucleated cells. Blood is not nucleated, so whatever DNA sample was found on the bullet wasn't blood. Consider that for a second, a bullet that supposedly went through TH has no blood on it, but does have some amount of skin or hair on it. Odd. Of course to believe that piece of evidence we have to believe that Steven is capable of cleaning the rest of the garage to the point where there isn't a single spec of blood, not even deep down in the large crack in the concrete running along nearly the entire length of the garage. Not only is he capable of scrubbing every ounce of TH's blood and various DNA from the garage, but he is able to do it without cleaning up the various oil stains, and the dirt and grime you would expect on the floor of a garage. Also managing to leave plenty of his DNA on everything in the place (miracle bleach! Genetically programmed to only destroy TH's DNA evidence! SA is truly the greatest criminal mastermind the world has ever seen).

I am sure I left out plenty of other details we could tear apart as well, but I think that story I just told would be plenty to get a not guilty verdict! Of course the defense wasn't allowed to bring up any potential third parties because they failed the "Denny" test where you have to prove at least two of motive, means, and opportunity. Clearly the motive is circumstantial, you aren't proving that they did it because they are jealous of Steven ever so you through that one out. So you have to prove means and opportunity, means was certainly there two men with a gun would have no issue murdering an unsuspecting 25 year old woman. Opportunity is difficult, they only have each other as an alibi though, and considering in the rape case of 1985 16 alibis for Steven were thrown out because they were family I think it is safe to assume the court shouldn't have any issue throwing out their alibis on the same grounds. Of course that doesn't help the state prove Steven did it, so why would they want to do that?

**kisada** · 2016-01-08 00:20

finished it today. what they did do brendan was just criminal. the part in the final episode with the lawyer and the investigator, oh my fucking god. so unreal and unethical. and the investigator either was a full blown jesus freak thinking it was his duty to put down the devil, or straight up crocodile tears. i know it couldn't have shown all of his reactions on the stand but he sure seemed pretty content with their plot against the kid.

the lawyer sure looked pretty fucking stupid too, when he said he didn't mention anything about "evil incarnate" or admitting brendan's guilt, and then having them play the clip right after.

**Thunder** · 2016-01-08 07:37

It's so crazy NOBODY else was questioned at any time - ever

Ex boyfriend never gave an alibi
(edit: fucking LOOOOL:

Spoiler: show

Brother never gave an alibi
The neighbor to steven who literally lied on stand (Edit: + had scratches on his back from what he alleges was a puppy) never gave an alibi

We know someone deleted her voice mail after she went missing. Who? And why..?

Some of the stuff is just downright impossible, too. TH blood found in her car but not anywhere on steven's property after 8 days of exhaustive searching? Even though the prosecutor relied on the bullet with TH's dna on it found in the garage was the location of her getting shot in the head?

@Oreth, that's a pretty good theory, haven't checked out much of reddit theories... but this shit is too interesting not to. The one that caught my eye was:

Spoiler: show

While the Search for Teresa Halbach was underway in November 2005, another series of events was beginning in Bonduel, Wisconsin.

A woman was moving from Bonduel, Wisconsin to Maribel. She had rented a house with the lease to start on 1 November, 2005. The house was on a property that included several outbuildings.

In Bonduel, her husband had exhibited bizarre behavior such as sleeping in their attic and sleeping in a fetal position.

She discovered that the labels had been cut from her clothing, and then her underwear was missing. Her husband denied any knowledge. During the week, he said he burned something at their new address and said it was a doll crib. There was a doll crib at the Maribel address, however, it was not burnt, however.

During the marriage, the citizen found that her husband had attempted to burn himself in the past. He also had previously burnt her clothing. He was diagnosed with personality disorder, narcissistic disorder, depressive disorder, and psychosis, but he refused to take medication.

She found that on 31 October, 2005, he visited the Maribel area and had stopped at the rental before the lease began. He spoke of visiting an auto salvage yard. He commented that a woman wanted to take pictures of the rental property on 31 October while he was there, and he felt that the photographer was “stupid.”

During the week, she observed that her husband had scratches on his back and a cut finger that bled intermittently. She was beginning the move while working in Green Bay.

She found her underwear stuffed in an attic closet at the Bonduel home. She also noted a boombox along with cans of Cherry Pepsi Cola near the steps of the Maribel home. Her underwear disappeared again.

On the 5 of November, when they stopped for lunch in the Maribel area, the husband saw a missing person poster for Halbach and stated dogmatically, “She’s dead.”

The following evening, her husband’s behavior turned worse. He refused to allow her into the Maribel rental. The citizen contacted the Manitowoc County Sheriff’s department, and he was arrested on 6 November, 2005. He was charged with disorderly conduct and resisting an officer.

When she returned to the Bonduel home to continue the move, she checked the attic cupboard again for her missing underwear. Instead, she found a pair of yellow lace panties than were not hers. They were about her size and had stains consistent with menstruation. She placed the panties in a plastic bag to ask her husband about them.

About 10 November, 2005 she looked through the outbuildings in Maribel for her missing clothing. She found some of her clothing cut into pieces. She also discovered a can of lighter fluid with a bloody fingerprint.

Unbeknownst to the citizen, her husband had been placed in two separate psychiatric care facilities during his custody. He was released to an outside address in January, 2006. Court records show that address as Glen’s Bar and Grill in Manitowoc. The County did not notify the woman that her husband was free and in the community.

Between November and the end of the year, a few odd things happened. Two explicit adult magazines were placed on the property. Also, her dogs found relatively fresh bones somewhere on the property. She discarded the bones.

While attempting to distract the dogs from the bones, the citizen dropped her husband’s tool chest in one of the outbuildings. A masons’ hammer and a pair of surgical gloves fell from the chest. The hammer had visible dark red flecks.

In January, she noticed a person staring at her home from the gas station/truck stop across the road. She then discovered that her husband had been released as well as his address. When she parked in the parking lot of the bar and grill, he approached her car and insisted that she take him to the Maribel residence and began searching the house. During the search, he struck her. She called the Sheriff’s Department, and her husband was rearrested.

The new charges were burglary, intimidation of a witness, criminal trespass, resisting an officer, and bail jumping.

One night she noted a second floor balcony door was open. She entered the home and secured the door. After that she discovered an opened closet at the base of the stairs with a pair of women’s jeans, a top, and a pillowcase stained with red stains.

She contacted the sheriff’s department. When a deputy arrived, the citizen explained her findings and wondered if the clothing were connected with the Halbach case. She then discussed the other incidents with the deputy. The deputy stated that she believed the Halbach clothing had been recovered! She collected one magazine and the yellow panties.

If the Halbach clothing had been recovered, it was not information that was released at or after the trial of Steven Avery. If not, then the deputy was fabricating.

The citizen was contacted by Manitowoc County Detective Dennis Jacobs. Jacobs is the child sex investigator for Manitowoc County. He insisted that the panties were from a child despite the staining and size. He wanted the citizen to accuse her husband of pedophilia. He also volunteered that authorities had their suspect in the Halbach case.

She told Detective Jacobs of the cut clothing and a previous incident when her husband had burnt her clothing. His response was that was not a crime.

The woman left Wisconsin for a job in Oregon. On 2 March, 2006 the Manitowoc County prosecutor dismissed the charges of burglary and intimidation against the husband. Charges of disorderly conduct, criminal trespass, and bail jumping were also dismissed. He pleaded no contest to the two resisting officer charges and was sentenced to time served.

She believes that the victim services office in Manitowoc County provided her husband with her new address. He was at her door soon after his release.

She considered the events of the week of 31 October, 2005, and her husband’s behaviors and injuries. The citizen believes that there may be a connection with the Halbach disappearance. When she asked her husband about any possible connection, he simply laughed and said no one would believe her if she reported her suspicions.

But, she had developed a distrust of Manitowoc County law enforcement. Her husband was probably correct that the Wisconsin authorities could not accept the concept that someone else did the crime.

by Brian McCorkle

TL;DR of that is there was some guy who had a history of arson and sexual harrassment/violence was weird as fuck and his wife found someone's bloodstained panties, top, jeans, lighter, hammer, chisel, blah blah blah and that he was acting super weird the week of her disappearance

The only hole afaik in that is explaining how this wacko got a gun but meh.

We'll never know... because it wasn't investigated

**Pringles** · 2016-01-08 13:56

Read this article a couple of days ago. If true, that should warrant a judge at the very least to consider retrying the case.

http://nypost.com/2016/01/05/making-...ed-filmmakers/

**Auspice** · 2016-01-08 22:03

Wife and I are about halfway through it and I'm totally conflicted. Generally the simplest explanation is the truest and I'm not a conspiracy nut yet the show is attempting to paint with that brush and I almost; just almost, want to believe. It's a compelling show but feels a little too tinfoil hat-y to me. I'll report back and read the spoiler stuff in a few days when I'm done to give my complete thoughts.

**kisada** · 2016-01-08 22:06

Originally Posted by Auspice

Wife and I are about halfway through it and I'm totally conflicted. Generally the simplest explanation is the truest and I'm not a conspiracy nut yet the show is attempting to paint with that brush and I almost; just almost, want to believe. It's a compelling show but feels a little too tinfoil hat-y to me. I'll report back and read the spoiler stuff in a few days when I'm done to give my complete thoughts.

to me it's not so much about the conspiracy theory rather than they are showing there is certainly reasonable doubt, and i don't think they could have argued a better case for that.

**Bregor** · 2016-01-09 00:02

Just finished it tonight. Busy this weekend but I'm sure I'll dive into every online article about it Monday

**Xno Kappa** · 2016-01-09 00:38

Finished it. Absolutely criminal what they did to Brendan and I'm blown away he wasn't granted a retrial and that his confession wasn't suppressed. Whether or not Steven did it, there was plenty of reasonable doubt. It doesn't matter if you choose to believe the police did or did not plant evidence, the whole investigation was grossly mismanaged.

Wisconsin is fucking nuts. Nice to be able to confirm to stay the fuck away from that state.

EDIT: Also, Teresa's brother is a fucking attention whore.

**kisada** · 2016-01-09 01:31

yeah agree. the reasonable doubt seemed more than enough.

i was reading the response where the guy thought both avery and adnan were both guilty, but they shouldn't have been convicted based on the evidence presented. dunno how much i agree with the first parts but i definitely agree with the second.

one of the journalists who was following avery's case at the time basically said that all the people who seemed like attention whores were exactly as advertised. it was disgusting seeing kratz and kachinksy gleefully soak up all that limelight. the journalist didn't follow the halbach case but i don't doubt that about the brother at all.

**Headspace** · 2016-01-09 16:16

Wife and I are four episodes in and I can tell that people in law enforcement and the judges clearly do not understand how low a 69 IQ is and how it affected the confessions and decision makings.

Steven Avery does not have the cognitive abilities to hide so much evidence that should be present, like the blood on the bed, rope fibers, etc.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**Oreth** · 2016-01-20 02:40

Not sure if others have watched this since but the whole Trial transcripts just got released online after weeks crowdfunding. People on reddit digging through absolutely everything with a fine tooth comb, makes for some fascinating further reading. This particular one was my favourite which is in relation to the cops magically finding the Key, 7 or so days later into the search warrant after "Shaking the bookcase in the room" . . .

" Jurors, looking at photos of the sidetable (aka "bookcase"), noticed some coins on the top of it. In photo(s) taken after the "shaking of the table/case" by Sheriff Lenk, the coins are seen to be in the same location as they are in the photo(s) taken before the infamous "shaking" event. "

**Ksandra** · 2016-01-23 01:01

I'm on episode 4, and I just want to vomit. What they did to Brendan should be criminal, and I don't know if he will ever get to see justice for it. I definitely wanted to reach into the TV and slap a bunch of people. It hurts to see a kid like that. Holy fuck. adslskfjsdlkjg

I did find this petition:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/steven-avery

I really do want to do my part for that kid. (Sorry, Avery too as I don't think he got a fair trial either.) If anyone ends up finding any other petitions, lemme know. Not sure if writing legislators does any good since I am not a resident of Wisconsin.

[edit] This one is better:

https://www.change.org/p/president-o...e-steven-avery

Gonna sign them all though.

oops that's the avery one. Here's on for Brendan that goes to the magistrate judge:

https://www.change.org/p/president-o...5-917e3cc36211

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