Annihilator (Gun Control Thread- NOT SHOOTINGS)

[Melena]

Are those restrictions and certifications any more strict than guns? I can't imagine that they would require more training or be more strict. They are already talking about arming teachers with guns. It would seem to me that arming them with less than lethal alternatives to start would be a cheaper experiment.

Also they do make higher pressure longer range pepper spray cans. Certainly I would imagine good enough for the close quarters of a school with classrooms and hallways.

If memory serves me, Taser certification is either 1 day 8 hour or 5 day 40 hour, it's one or the other, but i'm leaning towards it being 1 day for renewal, 40 hour for initial certification. Weapon certifications were a range test with a day and night shoot for each weapon you have issued. Standard is their glock, then if on patrol you got your rifle, and with permission you can be certified to carry an AR-15 instead of the standard rifle. I'm not sure on what the certification process was on the bean bag gun and tear gas launcher. I'd say due to the safety risks though, that those were 5 day 40 hour certs.

[Mythe_Seraph]

That in itself is it's own can of worms. Some jurisdictions don't even allow tasers. Pepper spray you have to be up close to the target, within arms reach as the spray doesn't have much of a range, so that won't do you any good against a gun man unless you get the drop on them. At least the agency I worked for required yearly certification and training for each individual less than lethal weapon. So good luck getting the state to pay teachers for that.

Why is it always assumed that the state would have to pay for the teachers to take these certification classes? Or to purchase the weapon whether it be lethal or non lethal? As a former teacher I would've paid for both out of my own underfunded pocket to ensure further safety of both myself and my students. Just make it available. Not mandatory. Not provided. Just available.

[archibaldcrane]

guns in classrooms

ensure safety of students




yeah i think we've discovered the problem with the plan here

[Melena]

Why is it always assumed that the state would have to pay for the teachers to take these certification classes? Or to purchase the weapon whether it be lethal or non lethal? As a former teacher I would've paid for both out of my own underfunded pocket to ensure further safety of both myself and my students. Just make it available. Not mandatory. Not provided. Just available.

Because the politicians keep saying arm the teachers to stop this. You think a teacher making 35k a year and shelling out several thousand already for school supplies so their students can learn cause the state is too cheap to fund things is going to have an extra few hundred for a hand gun, ammunition and yearly certifications?

[Mythe_Seraph]

Because the politicians keep saying arm the teachers to stop this. You think a teacher making 35k a year and shelling out several thousand already for school supplies so their students can learn cause the state is too cheap to fund things is going to have an extra few hundred for a hand gun, ammunition and yearly certifications?

Is EVERY teacher required to be armed? Doubt it. Is EVERY teacher going to want to even be armed? Heck no. Should they be? Heck no. But if a teacher WANTS to be certified, trained and qualified to carry if they pay for it out of their own pocket (as I said I would in my initial response, seems to have been glossed over in yours) why shouldn't they be allowed? Maybe have an added criteria where there's a maximum amount of 1-2 instructors who can be certified per school. etc. etc.

guns in classrooms

ensure safety of students

yeah i think we've discovered the problem with the plan here

"Or Non Lethal" "both myself and my students" must have evaded you here. Apparently you think that every gun owner is an irresponsible individual who doesn't know how to eliminate unsafe practice and ownership. Bravo.

[Melena]

Is EVERY teacher required to be armed? Doubt it. Is EVERY teacher going to want to even be armed? Heck no. Should they be? Heck no. But if a teacher WANTS to be certified, trained and qualified to carry if they pay for it out of their own pocket (as I said I would in my initial response, seems to have been glossed over in yours) why shouldn't they be allowed? Maybe have an added criteria where there's a maximum amount of 1-2 instructors who can be certified per school. etc. etc.



"Or Non Lethal" "both myself and my students" must have evaded you here.

Teachers if you notice for the most part are not wanting it. If states force it though, they should be required to fund it 100%. That's the point i'm trying to make. You on the other hand seem to want to nit pick and argue every point like teachers are lining up for free guns and ammo.

[Mythe_Seraph]

for the most part.

It's funny how majorities are only used to enforce certain points of view when it's convenient for those individuals.

Anyways. I don't see states "forcing it" but I also don't see them offering districts their choice to allow or disallow the practice. I don't think states should "force it." All I am saying is that if I were still teaching and a district offered me the opportunity to take appropriate training, obtain appropriate licensing and allowed me to carry I'd be totally inclined to work for that district rather than another. Sorry my difference of view makes you so upset.

[Melena]

Yeah, like maybe 1% of teachers are wanting to come armed. The other 99% just want to get through the day without their students getting fucking shot.

[Mythe_Seraph]

Yeah, like maybe 1% of teachers are wanting to come armed. The other 99% just want to get through the day without their students getting fucking shot.

Sick statistics based on actual data. Glad you speak for all educators and are such an expert and professional with so many years of service in the industry.

[Melena]

Sick statistics based on actual data. Glad you speak for all educators and are such an expert and professional with so many years of service in the industry.

I don't see you tossing anything out on who wants to come armed. I can safely say though that everyone I know in the teaching field does not want guns in the classrooms, and their peers don't want it either.

[Mythe_Seraph]

I don't see you tossing anything out on who wants to come armed. I can safely say though that everyone I know in the teaching field does not want guns in the classrooms, and their peers don't want it either.

You must be unfamiliar with today’s political climate. I’m not claiming that there’s a silent majority on the issue rather a majority of individuals who would tend to agree with this type of notion probably remain silent. My sources: the people I actually worked with. Not friends of friends of friends. Of someone they worked with. Oh and their friend. Albeit I do live in the Wild West. Still man. Not here to continue arguing because you see it how you do and I see it how I do.

I was merely saying: I think it’s funny how whenever those laws are brought up the backlash is “Why are we going to fund teachers getting guns when we can’t even fund books for our kids” and in reality that could be negated by allowing teachers to pay for it themselves. And from my perspective they would. That’s it man.

[Melena]

You must be unfamiliar with today’s political climate. I’m not claiming that there’s a silent majority on the issue rather a majority of individuals who would tend to agree with this type of notion probably remain silent. My sources: the people I actually worked with. Not friends of friends of friends. Of someone they worked with. Oh and their friend. Albeit I do live in the Wild West. Still man. Not here to continue arguing because you see it how you do and I see it how I do.

I was merely saying: I think it’s funny how whenever those laws are brought up the backlash is “Why are we going to fund teachers getting guns when we can’t even fund books for our kids” and in reality that could be negated by allowing teachers to pay for it themselves. And from my perspective they would. That’s it man.

And I don't think teachers would. Look at how many different states just in the past few months had teachers walking out on strike over pay. And certifications and classes that are being run by law enforcement are not cheap. So yes, the whole they can't even afford text books that were written in this century but they want teachers armed is a very valid complaint.

[Mythe_Seraph]

And I don't think teachers would. Look at how many different states just in the past few months had teachers walking out on strike over pay. And certifications and classes that are being run by law enforcement are not cheap. So yes, the whole they can't even afford text books that were written in this century but they want teachers armed is a very valid complaint.

And I think you’re out of touch if you believe that you wouldn’t get on average 1-2 teachers willing to pay for their own certification per school across North America. I’d take that bet hands down.

As far as the marching goes. Most of those schools were forced closures due to planned dates enforced by administrations that had high political motives. There were a large amount of teachers that did not want to participate in the march but were forced to and even forced to use PTO on days where they were shut down.

[Zealot]

How about we do something to keep kids from coming and shooting up schools in the first place.

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[Melena]

And I think you’re out of touch if you believe that you wouldn’t get on average 1-2 teachers willing to pay for their own certification per school across North America. I’d take that bet hands down.

As far as the marching goes. Most of those schools were forced closures due to planned dates enforced by administrations that had high political motives. There were a large amount of teachers that did not want to participate in the march but were forced to and even forced to use PTO on days where they were shut down.

Yeah, you may get a small handful, especially if they already own guns. But if they are going to be required to take mandated training that is on par with law enforcement, good luck on getting them to pay for that training. You can't get the majority of gun owners to spring for a basic range safety class.

[Byrthnoth]

selection bias there would probably not be good

people who are thinking "Oh yeah, I should totally have a gun around highschoolers" are going to be the most john wayne motherfuckers out there and probably shouldn't be the ones with guns

[Mythe_Seraph]

Yeah, you may get a small handful, especially if they already own guns. But if they are going to be required to take mandated training that is on par with law enforcement, good luck on getting them to pay for that training. You can't get the majority of gun owners to spring for a basic range safety class.

But you're once again assuming only a single source of funding. You're showing the problem with the basis of your initial argument, that of "Why are we paying for teachers to get trained and have a weapon when we can't even pay for books."

On top of there being easily, on AVERAGE (modifying my previous comment) 1-2 teachers per school willing to pay for their own training, weapon, etc (Would you really want more than 1-2 per school anyways? I mean, I would say keep it minimum personally but still offer it is what I would advocate for). Let's say teachers cant afford it. You don't think there are PARENTS who would fund it? Now... let's not even get started on the shit storm that would probably be but I guarantee you there would be multiple parents just PER CLASS that would be willing to toss money towards certified, trained, licensed, etc. teachers on campus.

EDIT: And I feel like I have to point this out with this audience. WILLING PARENTS. Not parents who are FORCED to pay anything.

selection bias there would probably not be good

people who are thinking "Oh yeah, I should totally have a gun around highschoolers" are going to be the most john wayne motherfuckers out there and probably shouldn't be the ones with guns

High School is a lot different than when you and I went. They already have paid security on most campuses.

[Melena]

Let's also not forget that who in there right mind is going to want to pay for something like that out of their own pocket. They are looking at if it's to be law enforcement certified 40 hours of range and class time, plus depending on their local laws and ordinances, apply for concealed carry permit, go through all the process of that. I don't know about you, but if I'm giving up that amount of time and money out of my own pocket, I am going to want it reimbursed and where are you going to get the funding for it? Schools don't have it, education is like the first thing cut on any state budget, you have insurance costs that will need to be maintained as well. Out here in the bay area, you have to have your own insurance to cover you if you accidently or unlawfully use your weapon. It's either 100k or 1mil, but either one is not cheap. It's not just as simple as going to walmart, buying a glock, a box of ammo and done with it and for whatever fucking reason, you seem to think teachers are going to line up for all this.

[archibaldcrane]

Apparently you think that every gun owner is an irresponsible individual who doesn't know how to eliminate unsafe practice and ownership. Bravo.

No, just enough of them that on net the presence of guns makes people more likely to get shot.

[Mythe_Seraph]

Schools don't have it.

I've given you alternative methods of funding but we're back at the schools again. If we want to evaluate the schools I can offer your personal experience and the opportunity to enlighten yourself as well. If you're really confident that schools don't have the funding or that the money is being managed at the highest possible level please go evaluate public school district audits. Take a look at a variety of them and you will find that they are some of the most poorly managed funds in the nation. From the top down.

I am lucky enough to have had jobs in many industries including retail, food service, manufacturing, banking, technology and education. I can say that hands down the use of the budget in education was far and away the least effectively managed out of all of those. When they say, "there's no funding" it usually means, "We haven't evaluated or projected different scenarios than the one we voted on and accepted upon its inception." When I found out that 15% of my (third) school district's allotted budget went to a total sum of just under 20 individuals I quit. Corporations aren't the only place you find greed. Are the funds at an adequate level? Probably not. Are the funds there to accommodate certified teachers to become licensed, insured, trained, etc. etc. Probably. On top of alternative funding that I referenced earlier and we didn't even get into teacher unions or education associations.

I mean there's not much more I can really say or even want to say on the subject without going so far off course it becomes arduous to not only read but also to write. I've presented my viewpoint with some of the basic supporting ideas, reasoning and insights. All I'd say further is just because you don't see or think of it that way doesn't mean there's only, "1%" of people in education that don't support it. And it wouldn't have to come at detriment to the student's budget and funding availability.