Annihilator (Gun Control Thread- NOT SHOOTINGS)

[Salodin]

The NRA directly lobbies for looser gun regulations, including the types that would directly affect mass shootings; things like larger magazine sizes, bump stocks, and many many more. These are items that were used in many recent mass shooting, and that's to say nothing of their efforts to stymie any assault rifle regulation. If you want more gun regulation, common sense regulation, that would lower the rate and lethality of mass shootings, why would you ignore the NRA?

They are a lobbying group lobbying to protect the very thing I want to restrict. Do you not see the relevance?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[Zetanio]

I'm heading to Vegas this weekend and we're headed to the shooting range. I have to say I'm really excited.

[zoobernut]

Realistically how prevalent are school shootings at suburban schools vs. inner city schools?

Then taking that in to account how many schools across the nation have a campus set up in a way where this kind of security is actually feasible without massive additional infrastructure to lock down the campus? Also would this tactic even stop an attack from somewhere outside of school grounds? How many of these schools are near tall buildings or hills or trees?

Not one of the schools that my boys will attend are set up in a way where these tactics of increasing security would really work. I think it might work in some cases but it isn't a catch all solution.

I am not saying that they are a bad idea they could work well in certain schools in certain situations.

[Salodin]

I love going to the range for a bit, but that doesn't mean I also have to be against a bump stock ban, assault rifle ban or severe limitations on who can own own, magazine restrictions, wait times, etc.

And the metal detectors are stupid. They do nothing to combat the problem, and just try to keep the problem off school grounds. That's not a solution, it's a bandaid trying to act as a deterrent that only works on school grounds. I don't want a deterrent to mass shootings in one specific location, I want to make them occur less often and when they happen I want them to be less lethal.

[Ksandra]

...are you kidding me? The African and Latino communities are huge voices of resistance to any "hardening" of schools -- zero tolerance policies, guards, and other securitization -- because these have documented disparately negative impact on children of color.

This isn't about your San Gabriel Valley and Inland Empire suburban schools Ksandra. The argument about the school-to-prison pipeline is specific to schools with high amounts of low income minority students. Think Inglewood and Compton. These schools are model prisons to deal with "problem" youth but essentially condition and normalize authoritarian discipline.

If you really want cites I'll go pull them

You all know I work at a school full of a population of students who come from a town labeled as "Well, at least it's not Compton." We are 99% hispanic/low income with many students coming from several generation gang members.


I've mentioned this several times before. This should not be surprising news.

This past school year, I had students write a letter to their representative about what they think should happen regarding gun violence in schools. I did everything I possible could to keep it as unbiased as possible. Constantly reminding them I would not judge them on their answers, just whether they followed the letter format I gave. I spent weeks showing them articles, statistics, etc. from all types of viewpoints.

One piece relevant to this discussion was to listen to the Left, Right, and Center podcast on an episode involving school shootings. Your argument about prison-like is one that was brought up during the podcast. Many kids didn't get it. I DID explain it to them. They still didn't see it.

I had one kid even ask me why we don't have them. He was a transfer from a HS that had them.

When I just tried to search this, it seems like there was some complaints coming from NYC about not needing the detectors anymore, but the last article I see was from 3 years ago. NYC didn't budge as they cite the fact that they've had no shootings at these schools since they put them up.


Huh, sounds like maybe they are helpful.

[Ksandra]

Realistically how prevalent are school shootings at suburban schools vs. inner city schools?

Then taking that in to account how many schools across the nation have a campus set up in a way where this kind of security is actually feasible without massive additional infrastructure to lock down the campus? Also would this tactic even stop an attack from somewhere outside of school grounds? How many of these schools are near tall buildings or hills or trees?

Not one of the schools that my boys will attend are set up in a way where these tactics of increasing security would really work. I think it might work in some cases but it isn't a catch all solution.

I am not saying that they are a bad idea they could work well in certain schools in certain situations.

I didn't specify this time around, but I don't imagine every school being able to utilize these. I am more arguing that if the school can use them, wants them, then there should be funding to give it to them.

[Ksandra]

While I don't believe simply putting in metal detectors solves the issue, my high school had metal detectors and I was always grateful they were there; and so was every other kid I've ever spoken with about it. Occasionally someone was stopped from bringing something in, but kids still tried to bring in knives and such. Back in 2011 there was news someone got jumped and stabbed.

Like I mentioned before, obviously I think the issue is much larger than just metal detectors though.

I want to stress, I agree the issue is much larger. I don't think the answer is to put up metal detectors and wipe our hands of the whole mess.

I do think we should give funding to schools that want safety measures such as these so at least they can try and keep their kids alive UNTIL we are able to solve the bigger issue.

Also, I am using metal detectors as a prime example, but there are other safety tools that schools could get funding for. IE these:

http://doorblok.com/lockblok.html

[Emphasis]

I want to stress, I agree the issue is much larger. I don't think the answer is to put up metal detectors and wipe our hands of the whole mess.

I do think we should give funding to schools that want safety measures such as these so at least they can try and keep their kids alive UNTIL we are able to solve the bigger issue.

Also, I am using metal detectors as a prime example, but there are other safety tools that schools could get funding for. IE these:

http://doorblok.com/lockblok.html

I agree with your points. I am also in favor of metal detectors.

[Greatguardian]

How big are these schools that are managing to use metal detectors effectively?

All of the high schools I've worked in have had 2000+ students. There's no way to funnel that many kids through detectors in a timely fashion.

[archibaldcrane]

As a parent of two kids, I don't want education funding spent on metal detectors or fancy reinforced door locks.

[Abandon]

1. Show me that there is a huge population of african americans who are against metal detectors at school and I'll listen to that part.

2. These mass school shootings are not happening in primarily african american communities.

3. I can't remotely remember any numbers since it was 20 years ago, but it was pretty even iirc between whites and minorities (mostly african american). According to the current demo of the school it's 59% white (seems now in a trio of african american, hispanic, and asian), which yes is majority, but not like extreme majority.

to be fair, niggas aint worried about getting shot at school, we're worried about catchin hands from the dude who's chick they been tryin to fuck for the last week with reckless abandon (c wut i did thar)

It's public gatherings stock full of caucasity that i fear, not mass gatherings of minorities. you white folk love guns a bit too much for my taste. yall wanna talk all that shit til someone put hands on you. so you go get guns, and here we are

[archibaldcrane]

It's public gatherings stock full of caucasity that i fear, not mass gatherings of minorities. you white folk love guns a bit too much for my taste. yall wanna talk all that shit til someone put hands on you. so you go get guns, and here we are

Let's not get carried away, the much bigger risk is getting caught up in some gang retaliation shit than crazy ass white people going off. It just doesn't make national news when black people shoot a bunch of other black people, so we get all "availability heuristic" about it.

Exhibit A: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...-mass-shooting

[arus2001]

Funny thing about kids is they're probably not smart enough to know better. I imagine if you went on to ask them about the prison system, they'd probably just tell you it's where the bad people go and never hear any mention of racial discrimination or for-profit practices, and maybe a "don't drop the soap" joke because, hey, media. So, while it may be erring toward the Simpsons-esque "Think of the children!" we should really be disappointed with the state of society that even entertaining the notion of walls, choke points, detectors, and armed guards in our schools is ever considered a good thing. Instead, it's every day affirming of the message that people are dangerous, that someone you know or think you know could just up and murder you tomorrow. And if you're lucky, you'll get a prison-tier lunch while you're there. When you grow up like this not knowing the alternative, then of course it may also seem unnatural or weird.

Otherwise, I understand your desire to want to keep the kids safe, but the solution isn't to hide them away from the problem and hope your school isn't next. It's to actually handle the fucking problem.

[Ksandra]

How big are these schools that are managing to use metal detectors effectively?

All of the high schools I've worked in have had 2000+ students. There's no way to funnel that many kids through detectors in a timely fashion.

NYC schools have them and they are pretty large.

Some of the big LA schools here have them, too. They seem to manage.

to be fair, niggas aint worried about getting shot at school, we're worried about catchin hands from the dude who's chick they been tryin to fuck for the last week with reckless abandon (c wut i did thar)

It's public gatherings stock full of caucasity that i fear, not mass gatherings of minorities. you white folk love guns a bit too much for my taste. yall wanna talk all that shit til someone put hands on you. so you go get guns, and here we are

I agree with all of this. This is mostly a white people problem.

However, I have had three times now in the three years of teaching with students who were at risk for bringing in a weapon into school. Two we were able to throw out, one still goes to our school (hopefully not next year, but who knows.)

[Ksandra]

As a parent of two kids, I don't want education funding spent on metal detectors or fancy reinforced door locks.

Good to know teacher's bodies are good enough protection for you.

[Gredival]

Your argument about prison-like is one that was brought up during the podcast. Many kids didn't get it. I DID explain it to them. They still didn't see it.

I had one kid even ask me why we don't have them. He was a transfer from a HS that had them.

Sigh...

"From Education to Incarceration: Dismantling the School to Prison Pipeline" (Peter Lang Inc., 2014) -- https://searchworks.stanford.edu/view/10590996

-- Ch. 1: Nancy Heitzeg, Co-Director of the Critical Studies of Race/Ethnicity Program at St. Catherine University (how marginalized students are pushed into the criminal justice system)
-- Ch. 4: Henry A Giroux, Chair for Scholarship in the Public Interest in the English and Cultural Studies Department at McMaster University (Post 9/11 securitization criminalizes youth, particularly youth of color, instilling a culture of hopelessness that unsettles their participation and access to democracy
-- Ch. 5: Jesselyn McCurdy, Counsel with the House Judiciary Committee’s Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security (The culture of modern schooling targets children of color from birth to be put into jails and prisons)

Lizbet Simmons, Ph.D. and M.A. in Social and Cultural Studies from the University of California at Berkeley; "The Prison School: Educational Inequality and School Discipline in the Age of Mass Incarceration" (University of California Press, 2017) -- https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1525/j.ctt1hd17hh

Janel George, Senior Education Policy Counsel at the NAACP Legal Defense and Education Fund and Director of Federal Reproductive Rights and Health at the National Women’s Law Center; "Stereotype and School Pushout: Race, Gender, and Discipline Disparities" (Arkansas Law Review, Vol. 68) -- http://media.law.uark.edu/arklawrevi...129-George.pdf

"The School-to-Prison Pipeline: A Nationwide Problem for Equal Rights" -- http://www.rollingstone.com/music/ne...ights-20131107 (Current disciplinary procedures entrench racial disparities by forcing minority and disabled students into the prison industrial complex)

When I just tried to search this, it seems like there was some complaints coming from NYC about not needing the detectors anymore, but the last article I see was from 3 years ago. NYC didn't budge as they cite the fact that they've had no shootings at these schools since they put them up.

Huh, sounds like maybe they are helpful.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...ty-guns-431424

Research is spotty, but it suggests that simply fortifying schools — whether through the presence of armed officials or beefed-up security — does little to reduce the likelihood of school shootings and is not nearly as effective as identifying threats and intervening early to address them.

And before you say metal detectors aren't the same as hardening schools, look at how the image of a fortified security school is kids going through a metal detector in a NY school.

If you want a nation of criminals, treat the citizenry like criminals.

If you want young people to grow up seeing themselves as prisoners, run the schools like prisons.

If, on the other hand, you want to raise up a generation of freedom fighters, who will actually operate with justice, fairness, accountability and equality towards each other and their government, then run the schools like freedom forums.

Remove the metal detectors and surveillance cameras, re-assign the cops elsewhere, and start treating our nation’s young people like citizens of a republic and not inmates in a police state.

https://www.rutherford.org/publicati...ing_cops_short

Metal dectors are an aspect of hardening. The securitization of schools is a process which is not neutral. Whether or not your teenage are aware of that. But if their consent to metal detectors is primary in your decision making analysis, do they also support gun control movement by students (i.e. what Dems are trying to do)?

[zoobernut]

Good to know teacher's bodies are good enough protection for you.

Haven't they shown a direct correlation between increased quality in education and reduction in violent tendencies? It seems that we need to reevaluate the ROI on where we put money in making schools safer. Metal detectors and fancy doors may look like they are making you safer but the reality might be different and they might just be placating your mind without actually being very effective. They are just flashy and easy to see while other solutions with a much better return/result are less flashy or easy to see in effect.

Considering the state of the schools in this country it is silly that we can waste money on these things when we can't even get the education portion right and don't pay our teachers well enough. I would rather see those funds go towards other methods of prevention that build up and support the students rather than strong arm them into submission.

[Ksandra]

Sigh...

"From Education to Incarceration: Dismantling the School to Prison Pipeline" (Peter Lang Inc., 2014) -- https://searchworks.stanford.edu/view/10590996

-- Ch. 1: Nancy Heitzeg, Co-Director of the Critical Studies of Race/Ethnicity Program at St. Catherine University (how marginalized students are pushed into the criminal justice system)
-- Ch. 4: Henry A Giroux, Chair for Scholarship in the Public Interest in the English and Cultural Studies Department at McMaster University (Post 9/11 securitization criminalizes youth, particularly youth of color, instilling a culture of hopelessness that unsettles their participation and access to democracy
-- Ch. 5: Jesselyn McCurdy, Counsel with the House Judiciary Committee’s Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security (The culture of modern schooling targets children of color from birth to be put into jails and prisons)

School-to-prison pipeline is about things like kicking kids out of school, not following PBIS, and having them end up in juvenile prison. It's not simply metal detectors by itself.

Lizbet Simmons, Ph.D. and M.A. in Social and Cultural Studies from the University of California at Berkeley; "The Prison School: Educational Inequality and School Discipline in the Age of Mass Incarceration" (University of California Press, 2017) -- https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1525/j.ctt1hd17hh

Can't find any analysis on this one so I can't comment.

Janel George, Senior Education Policy Counsel at the NAACP Legal Defense and Education Fund and Director of Federal Reproductive Rights and Health at the National Women’s Law Center; "Stereotype and School Pushout: Race, Gender, and Discipline Disparities" (Arkansas Law Review, Vol. 68) -- http://media.law.uark.edu/arklawrevi...129-George.pdf

"The School-to-Prison Pipeline: A Nationwide Problem for Equal Rights" -- http://www.rollingstone.com/music/ne...ights-20131107 (Current disciplinary procedures entrench racial disparities by forcing minority and disabled students into the prison industrial complex)

See my above statement.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...ty-guns-431424

Article links to study I can't see.

And before you say metal detectors aren't the same as hardening schools, look at how the image of a fortified security school is kids going through a metal detector in a NY school.

Bars, no trees, blocked windows, etc. etc. are not metal detector requirements.


Seriously, you are arguing off the idea that there will be things that will come with the metal detector, which I've never argued for.


Do you feel like you are walking into a prison every time you go to a bank? Do you? No. Because you are not dumb, and know it's not a prison. You understand the purpose of the detectors. You grasp there is a need for them. And outside of the detectors the place looks probably pretty nice and nothing what you image a prison to look like.

Now with shootings gaining national attention, more kids are seeing why schools would want the detectors, they would see the purpose. And it's not because we think they are all criminals, but that we want to protect them.

Perception has changed as the times have changed (with media help).



https://www.rutherford.org/publicati...ing_cops_short

Metal dectors are an aspect of hardening. The securitization of schools is a process which is not neutral.

It all comes down to how the schools use them. Take a look at that and fix the schools that are doing it incorrectly. More and more schools are pushed to do PBIS (LA requires it), which ends up combating this idea of using security as a prison vs. safety measure.

But if their consent to metal detectors is primary in your decision making analysis, do they also support gun control movement by students (i.e. what Dems are trying to do)?

Yes, they organized a 17 minute of silence for the parkland shooting with speeches after and pictures of the victims on chairs. I was super proud of them. It was 100% organized by the students, they just asked the principal if it was allowed.

We let students who didn't want to participate sit in the theater. Some did. Most were outside. (of course, you can't assume all outside were a part of it vs. wanting fresh air).



More students wrote about having more gun control than those asking for less. But the vast majority wrote about how they didn't want teachers to have guns.

Only two wrote about wanting safety equipment. None wrote about not liking safety equipment.

[Ksandra]

One thing my school does (not common) that I would love to see a push for is that all our security members are the sports coaches. One them also is going through training as a counselor.

Kids madly respect their coaches, and thus madly respect the security guards. It really helps. I don't think the kids look at our security as prison wardens at all. Many joke with them all the time, and have a strong relationship with them.

[Ksandra]

Haven't they shown a direct correlation between increased quality in education and reduction in violent tendencies? It seems that we need to reevaluate the ROI on where we put money in making schools safer. Metal detectors and fancy doors may look like they are making you safer but the reality might be different and they might just be placating your mind without actually being very effective. They are just flashy and easy to see while other solutions with a much better return/result are less flashy or easy to see in effect.

Considering the state of the schools in this country it is silly that we can waste money on these things when we can't even get the education portion right and don't pay our teachers well enough. I would rather see those funds go towards other methods of prevention that build up and support the students rather than strong arm them into submission.

I would love for teachers to get more money, and us bring back art and music and PE, and yes I do think that would reduce the violence, too.

That goes back to my voting budget comments.

The mass shootings are not happening in places that couldn't have good budgets.

Netwowns median income is $100k and their income tax rate is only 5%.