Aeonic Weapons Mega Thread

[Damane]

I just saw this ¬.¬



ok asked him out

Apearantly after the NM kill you just need to go farm some Relic attestation form Dynamis

[Ihina]

Is it just me or does that seem a little too easy? NMs are tough now, but they'll become routine eventually, like delve NMs. So farm beads, buy clears from some LS, farm dyna and you're done?

[Fwahm]

Unless they get nerfed, I don't see WoC, Kirin, and especially the six Reisenjima HELM NMs ever becoming even close to routine except for maybe the 1 or 2 best groups on each server. Saying that you can buy is all well and good, but even if the top groups start to sell, it's going to be so expensive that the weapons are still going to be incredibly hard to get.

That's not even counting the fact that not every server is likely to have a group that can clear all eight, let alone a group that is willing to sell clears on top of that.

[Ihina]

Agree to disagree. FFXI is riddled with mobs that started out difficult then became farming fodder. It's only a matter of time.

[Fwahm]

Yeah, because either content got nerfed, the next new broken strat was discovered, or players got significantly stronger due to later content. We're pretty much done with new content systems, so huge future gains in player strength are pretty much out of the question, and I personally don't think SE's future balance patches will do anything nearly as significant as the magic burst update, which means that SE nerfing the mobs is the only way they'll become "farming fodder" at this point in the game.

[Kincard]

Probably also depends on how they'll be handling power creep from now on. Worth noting that shiny new RMEs are like 2 weeks away, so that's something.

[Ihina]

Yeah, because either content got nerfed, the next new broken strat was discovered, or players got significantly stronger due to later content. We're pretty much done with new content systems, so huge future gains in player strength are pretty much out of the question, and I personally don't think SE's future balance patches will do anything nearly as significant as the magic burst update, which means that SE nerfing the mobs is the only way they'll become "farming fodder" at this point in the game.

Not necessarily. For instance, my group was one of the groups that cleared delve NMs before the ilvl update. The first kills was a huge pain to achieve, but subsequent kills were noticeably easier. You can argue that delve weapons were stronger than what we had at the time, but those 269 skill weapons are nice too.

[Byrthnoth]

Unless the aftermath is really substantial, they're actually pretty shitty. Even if it is substantial, most of them are shitty because the WS they're tied to isn't great for skillchains (and many of them aren't usefully affected by the 500 TP bonus). So they'd need a substantial aftermath effect and a WS damage boost to really be usable over current RMEs in the first place, and next month we're getting about a 10% DPS boost to our RMEs plus additional stats.

I'm making the dagger for lulz and then will probably make the Honor March horn.

[Mojo]

Yeah, because either content got nerfed, the next new broken strat was discovered, or players got significantly stronger due to later content. We're pretty much done with new content systems, so huge future gains in player strength are pretty much out of the question, and I personally don't think SE's future balance patches will do anything nearly as significant as the magic burst update, which means that SE nerfing the mobs is the only way they'll become "farming fodder" at this point in the game.

We barely know anything concrete regarding most of the helm NMs. The same can be said for Kirin and WoC. I've witnessed a shout group get WoC down to 20% (they timed out) by locking SPs and possibly other techniques and I know the guy shouting has actually cleared it before with his shout groups. I would have recorded the fight if I wasn't busy doing other Escha stuff. I'm not directing this towards you personally, but I find it somewhat laughable (and also dissapointing and disheartening) that people trust their immediate impressions on literally everything without waiting until additional information comes in. Turn the clock back a few weeks when people were discussing how Aeonic skillchaining works. Without even having the weapons to test, people were dead set on how they think they worked, only to be completely proved wrong by a post on the official forums. It's a testament to human naivety.

[Ramzii]

considering the aeonic weapons look really underwhelming from a mages perspective, i 100% doubt the NMs will become any easier post-aeonics, or even post-RME update unless the mage weapons get some super ultra goku buff, they will still most likely not be better than their ru'aun t2 counterpart or grioavolr (depending on augment).

the relative increase in difficulty from WoC to like, vinipata is the same jump from pakecet to WoC, and then the increase in difficulty from vinipata to zerde is the same increase in difficulty. they won't be any easier unless they're nerfed or we get super buffed again

[dasva]

Also the difference between this and delve is alot of delve was dps checks. Either the total time limit or time till running into stuns walls were fairly limiting factors so increases in dps were fairly relevant. The difficulty of these is largely their mechanics and survivability which wont be fixed by a little acc and att increase. We will learn more about them and that should help but unless it's game changing like encourage meleeing game changing I don't see a ton of people doing these

[Viar]

Yeah, because either content got nerfed, the next new broken strat was discovered, or players got significantly stronger due to later content. We're pretty much done with new content systems, so huge future gains in player strength are pretty much out of the question, and I personally don't think SE's future balance patches will do anything nearly as significant as the magic burst update, which means that SE nerfing the mobs is the only way they'll become "farming fodder" at this point in the game.

SE mentioned they'd implement more battle content in the future, so we may still have boost in player strength. Also community's NM strategy improve overtime as more and more tricks are discovered. The first WoC/kirin video we saw were noticeably "harder" than the strategy most groups are using now. Nowadays even Kirin/WoC are pugable, made a kirin pug last week with half of the ppl in pt are strangers, still managed to get it down to 7%~ with tons of mistakes. It's definitely doable with pug with a more flawless run.

IMO, it's just the matter of time before Reisenjima T4 are pugable too.

Also the difference between this and delve is alot of delve was dps checks. Either the total time limit or time till running into stuns walls were fairly limiting factors so increases in dps were fairly relevant. The difficulty of these is largely their mechanics and survivability which wont be fixed by a little acc and att increase. We will learn more about them and that should help but unless it's game changing like encourage meleeing game changing I don't see a ton of people doing these

pre-ilv delve has mechanics/survivability to deal with as well, especially for shark zone. There's a reason why most jp pug used a more defensive setup in pre-ilv shark zone. player survivability can also be improved as more and more people get better gears with higher meva+/def+.

Overall, I'm confident that we'll be seeing lots of aeonic soon.

Unless the aftermath is really substantial, they're actually pretty shitty. Even if it is substantial, most of them are shitty because the WS they're tied to isn't great for skillchains (and many of them aren't usefully affected by the 500 TP bonus). So they'd need a substantial aftermath effect and a WS damage boost to really be usable over current RMEs in the first place, and next month we're getting about a 10% DPS boost to our RMEs plus additional stats.

I'm making the dagger for lulz and then will probably make the Honor March horn.

Guess that's sort of balance....2 months of release and we're already seeing first aeonic, which is so much faster than first relic/mythic/empy/ergon. Aeonics are also quite spamable. If you have a group that can kill NMs, you can farm aeonics for all of your jobs in a relatively short time. You aren't going to farm that many mythics back in 2008 in 2 months. Makes sense that the least time sink legendary are not as good.

[Sechs]

Not necessarily. For instance, my group was one of the groups that cleared delve NMs before the ilvl update. The first kills was a huge pain to achieve, but subsequent kills were noticeably easier.

Maybe I missed your point, but I don't see how what you wrote is agaisnt what Fwahm and Ramzii have been saying.
Yes, you killed Delve bosses before the ilevel update and they progressively got easier.
Duh, of course?
There has been the skill patch.
Small tweaks/nerfs to the bosses.
Gimmicks of all NMs finally became known and manageable by creating solid strategies.
Players got a plethora of new 119 gear and AF gear (before it was hard to get 119 stuff in all slots, nevermind GOOD 119 pieces)
There have been several jobs adjustments, among which massive boosts to WS damage, SC damage and MB damage.
Players got Job points and gifts, etc etc.

Part of these massive buffs apply to Ru'aun content and before.
In a way it's kinda comparing to content that got added to the game at level 90 or 95, it slowly got better because we gained more levels, more stuff, more gear etc.

Now we're at a point where the power creep on players has kinda reached a stall point.
There won't be more levels to add, no higher ilevel, no new job points or gifts, I don't see massive system updates to combat balance either aside from small job tweaks here and there.
Yes there's the RME patch coming and that's gonna help for sure, but other than that?
When you consider that the only other factor that remains is => finding more details on the strategies/gimmicks for all these NMs, for most of which we don't even know them because players have found alternative ways to defeat them, but they're still pretty hard.
Which brings us to the point those guys where making ==> Unless SE releases detailed information on these mobs and/or performs tweaks/nerfs to them, these mobs will remain pretty hard for a long time. Of course the number of people able to defeat them will progressively increase, but it will hardly be a massive (or fast) difference.



So we're back to square one and the initial question that you asked: "Is it just me or does that seem a little too easy?"
And yes, it's exactely like that. SE chose a very bad way to balance these weapons, and they fucked themselves up.
Because now if they keep things exactely like this, it's gonna be a pain to complete these weapons, if they change something to make them easier, then it's gonna become TOO easy, and people will be able to complete a plethora of weapons (think about a group of 10 people doing all 3 zones regularly, couple of days and a new set of weapons will be complete for all of them).
Finding an in-between balance so these weapons aren't too rare or too common is gonna be near impossible for SE, and they only have themselves to thank for that.

[Ihina]

Of course. That was the point I was trying to make. Mobs will become easier with time, whether through gear, skill, familiarly and information. Reisen HELM mobs are no different.

[Sechs]

Of course. That was the point I was trying to make. Mobs will become easier with time, whether through gear, skill, familiarly and information. Reisen HELM mobs are no different.

Yes but what I was trying to say is that things now are pretty different from what they were back in the Delve days, or even later.
Back then the game had a certain type of future ahead and saw quite some massive increase in the players' power because of the factors I explained.
Said in other words: there was space for a huge increase in the players' power.

At the moment though it's not like that. We will hardly see anything like that in terms of new power coming into the players' hands because there will hardly be such a plethora of gear which is so much better than gear we already have. A couple of items here and there, but nothing massive.
We wont' see new job points, new gifts, no ilevel higher than 119, hardly any "massive" change to jobs/balance (like SC, MB, WS stuff).

So you see that from this point of view there will hardly be a massive difference in the "power" the players have at their disposal, which leads us back to the point Fwahm and the others were making: without SE releasing detailed info and/or nerfing those NMs, we're hardly gonna see a massive difference (such as the mentioned Delve one, or other) in how easier those NMs become for the players.
It will be a little better over time of course, but it will hardly make a noticeable difference.

[dasva]

pre-ilv delve has mechanics/survivability to deal with as well, especially for shark zone. There's a reason why most jp pug used a more defensive setup in pre-ilv shark zone. player survivability can also be improved as more and more people get better gears with higher meva+/def+.

Overall, I'm confident that we'll be seeing lots of aeonic soon

The thing is though those survivability/mechanics issues stopped a lot of pugs (and hell all the English shells I knew of my server) until the huge boosts from ilvl update. And well we wont be getting such an update nor seeing huge boost in meva/def you speak of.

I'm confident we will be seeing some from the better shells but it will be similar to pre ilvl delve where a lot of people wont be in a solid enough group to do it

[Ramzii]

I don't think the clear rate will be all that different from Delve. The important distinction is that we no longer need 18 to do these monsters since they actually scale down with HP quite well. I think once the first few groups clear and get their Aeonics + provide ample information for all the NMs we'll be seeing a lot more aeonics pop up. I'm sure there are 6-10 like-minded people out there who would team up to make the weapons on every server, even if they aren't in an LS together.

[FaeQueenCory]

I just saw this ¬.¬



ok asked him out

Apearantly after the NM kill you just need to go farm some Relic attestation form Dynamis

Congrats Manola!
And thank you Damane for whoring yourself out for the intel. ;p
If he could tell us how many of what... I'll something.

EDIT: Wait. Wtfh. Where's the goads and fragments!? JUST a single aligned attestation? Why would the gobbie even mention the goads and fragments... those aren't even related to the attestation NMs! (I'm thinking he didn't mention that you need to trade a goad and a fragment or 10 before the attestation....)

That's not even counting the fact that not every server is likely to have a group that can clear all eight, let alone a group that is willing to sell clears on top of that.

I think that'll change when they merge servers after feb. (They haven't said when, but they've been "we wanna see what happens AFTER we do the shiny thing. Last time being Rhapsodies, now it's REM.)
But even with server merging, I kinda pretty much agree that these will be the new "99 empys".
(ala empys were usually stopped at 90 because 90 was good enough to be on par/better than equivalent relic/mythics... but also because the super grind of HMP was off putting for most ppl. The difficulty of the mechanics of these NMs are essentially the same: a deterrent to the lazy.... I just wish they'd expand relics and empys so that ToAU, WotG, and SoA jobs have a CHOICE for what relic-type weapon to make.)

Not necessarily. For instance, my group was one of the groups that cleared delve NMs before the ilvl update. The first kills was a huge pain to achieve, but subsequent kills were noticeably easier. You can argue that delve weapons were stronger than what we had at the time, but those 269 skill weapons are nice too.

What Sechs has said.
And that is literally what is called a nerf.
They restructured iLv to cap at 119, and added a multitude of statvomit to make current CL20 content easier.
Sure they didn't reduce potency of the NMs... but there's many ways to nerf a thing.
Isn't that right, Ochain?

considering the aeonic weapons look really underwhelming from a mages perspective, i 100% doubt the NMs will become any easier post-aeonics, or even post-RME update unless the mage weapons get some super ultra goku buff, they will still most likely not be better than their ru'aun t2 counterpart or grioavolr (depending on augment).

Well... these are relics V3. While it was disappointing to get a third line of Relics for SoA jobs... it's not really surprising given Empys. (And from Empys, people should have immediately known that these would be wasteful for magery and pets... though at least BST and DRG have their iLv tied to the main hand if they really wanted to use these... and DRGs don't tend to have pet stats on their weapon anyways.)

Now we're at a point where the power creep on players has kinda reached a stall point.
There won't be more levels to add, no higher ilevel, no new job points or gifts, I don't see massive system updates to combat balance either aside from small job tweaks here and there.
Yes there's the RME patch coming and that's gonna help for sure, but other than that?
When you consider that the only other factor that remains is => finding more details on the strategies/gimmicks for all these NMs, for most of which we don't even know them because players have found alternative ways to defeat them, but they're still pretty hard.
Which brings us to the point those guys where making ==> Unless SE releases detailed information on these mobs and/or performs tweaks/nerfs to them, these mobs will remain pretty hard for a long time. Of course the number of people able to defeat them will progressively increase, but it will hardly be a massive (or fast) difference.



So we're back to square one and the initial question that you asked: "Is it just me or does that seem a little too easy?"
And yes, it's exactely like that. SE chose a very bad way to balance these weapons, and they fucked themselves up.
Because now if they keep things exactely like this, it's gonna be a pain to complete these weapons, if they change something to make them easier, then it's gonna become TOO easy, and people will be able to complete a plethora of weapons (think about a group of 10 people doing all 3 zones regularly, couple of days and a new set of weapons will be complete for all of them).
Finding an in-between balance so these weapons aren't too rare or too common is gonna be near impossible for SE, and they only have themselves to thank for that.

I disagree about the idea that making these is "too easy".
Given the shenanigans that NMs get up to, and just their current known potencies, these are preiswert.
And even factoring in power-creep... they remain to Relics and Empys what 99/A Empys were in the 99era to Relics.
Ergons are the worst to make. Then Mythics. Then these are about the same as Empys... just different. (one can be solo'd while these demand people... but the staggering time investment in Empys makes up for the short time of these.) And Relics are the easiest.
Currently at least.

And given that these are on par with both Relics... Does it really matter if they became so easy to do that EVERYONE could have one?
Everyone isn't running around with Relics, yet they are, objectively, extremely simple, easy, and fast to do nowadays. Everyone *could* have a Relic 99A if they wanted, and it really wouldn't change much of anything if we all had all Relics.
And Aeonics aren't anything but a new flavor of Relics.
(Though I do think people are too critical at the moment of the MeritWSs. They're automatically 5/5, and have a SC and MBB term to the AM... AND they gain T3 properties while under any tier of AM... So while the extremely high base damage of the "121" Relics will mean they'll put out higher WS numbers, these are more utilitarian and place the emphasis on SC rather than WS.)

[dasva]

I don't think the clear rate will be all that different from Delve. The important distinction is that we no longer need 18 to do these monsters since they actually scale down with HP quite well. I think once the first few groups clear and get their Aeonics + provide ample information for all the NMs we'll be seeing a lot more aeonics pop up. I'm sure there are 6-10 like-minded people out there who would team up to make the weapons on every server, even if they aren't in an LS together.

I don't think it will be that different either... and well on my server I think only 1-2 English lss cleared any boss and I don't think any had cleared all 3 before the ilvl update and it was only a few weeks before

[Ihina]

Yes but what I was trying to say is that things now are pretty different from what they were back in the Delve days, or even later.
Back then the game had a certain type of future ahead and saw quite some massive increase in the players' power because of the factors I explained.
Said in other words: there was space for a huge increase in the players' power.

At the moment though it's not like that. We will hardly see anything like that in terms of new power coming into the players' hands because there will hardly be such a plethora of gear which is so much better than gear we already have. A couple of items here and there, but nothing massive.
We wont' see new job points, new gifts, no ilevel higher than 119, hardly any "massive" change to jobs/balance (like SC, MB, WS stuff).

So you see that from this point of view there will hardly be a massive difference in the "power" the players have at their disposal, which leads us back to the point Fwahm and the others were making: without SE releasing detailed info and/or nerfing those NMs, we're hardly gonna see a massive difference (such as the mentioned Delve one, or other) in how easier those NMs become for the players.
It will be a little better over time of course, but it will hardly make a noticeable difference.

I think my point is still lost on some, well, many people.

Yes, they're easy now, but I'm not talking about now. I'm talking about the moment we first got our initial clears and the immediate subsequent kills, before ilvl was implemented.

I don't know why so many people picked the wrong side of the argument here. If you kill something once, killing it a second time, with the same group of players, will definitively be easier bar terrible luck. That's simply indisputable. The more you kill it, the easier it'll get, and it'll eventually become routine.

Once killing something become routine, you can then merc it.

I don't understand why there's an argument to be had here.