February 2016 Version Update - Discussion & Findings

[Jem]

I don't think Metatron does. It lowers mob defense as an add effect which is what you could be thinking of? Unless you mean Steel Cyclone?

I think Spinning Slash and Ground Strike have one too. But they suffer from shitty fTP.

Maybe if something like Torcleaver had an attack boost (or Quietus had Torcleaver fTP), it would be more relevant.

[dasva]

So did rng mythic really lose am3 or is the english side just messed up like the cor one?

[Ophannus]

This is more or less all the WS with attack bonus modifiers:

Viper Bite +100%, Mandalic Stab +75%, Spinning Slash +50%, Ground Strike +50%, Penta Thrust -12.5%, Drakesbane -18.75%, Blade: Kamu +31.25%, Iron Tempest (+0% - 50%), Steel Cyclone +50%, True Strike +100%, Retribution +50%, Detonator/Empyreal Arrow +100%, Ascetic's Fury +100%, Howling Fist +50%, Tornado Kick +50%, Resolution -15%, Tachi: Yukikaze +50%, Tachi: Gekko: +100%, Tachi: Kasha +65%, Tachi: Shoha +37.5%, Requiescat (-0% - 20%).

[Ophannus]

So did rng mythic really lose am3 or is the english side just messed up like the cor one?

Probably on a second page.

[Byrthnoth]

Let's say you have 50% defense down on a mob with 2500 defense.

You're going to need at least 2800 attack to even get past the previous cap, before you're getting any bonuses at all compared to before. I don't know about you, but even on DRK I don't routinely get that high unless I'm getting SVed minuets or something in addition to a corsair. Saying that stuff like Quietus or Camlann's Torment lowers defense by an effective 40% doesn't mean much when they'll still usually be weaker than other options because of their 3.0 fTP (and when they're stronger, won't be by much).

Well, 2500 defense is probably high even for endgame NMs. Apex crabs have 1300. I'm going to use your number, but it is so high that the results aren't going to square with your (or my) personal experiences.


When fighting a monster with 2500 Defense, I would have to wear my Acc TP/WS sets and have about 1000 base attack on DNC. If I was fighting something like that, I'd have a COR, a BRD, and at least two Dunna GEOs mostly giving me Acc buffs. On the attack side, I assume I'd get Frailty, Chaos, and an enhanced Dia II (Precision, Torpor, Attunement, Vex/Languor outside). With no BoG, that's 48.3% Defense Down (1292 defense remaining). A 40% Chaos Roll puts me at 1400 Attack, or a ratio of 1.08.


Level 10 Box Step (DNC's analog of Angon, or Quietus, or Camlann's Torment) adds 23% Defense Down, bringing the monster down to 717 defense and pushing me up to a ratio of 1.95 (Ratio increase of 80%, damage increase of ~85% via the old equations). In the past, there was danger of stacking together too many forms of defense down / attack boost and ending up over the cap. With new pDIF against super-Maju, this may not be the case (pending testing). Jobs particularly well positioned to take advantage of this are probably those that have more than 1000 Attack with 4 buffers, like DRK and WAR, or those who have unresistable and fairly unique forms of Defense down, like DNC and DRG.


lolDRG is helped by these changes in a lot of different ways (Angon, Camlann's, Jump attack bonuses) and might be worth re-evaluating as a DD. Ryunohige playstyle wouldn't necessarily be the same as it has been, but it could be quite good.

DNC remains awesome (YAY!) BLU is probably helped the least of any job by these changes. I look forward to seeing Ascetic's Fury numbers on high level enemies like Maju.

Edit: Actually, after looking at Ascetic's Fury I'm not so sure. The mods and fTP are just too low. It's never going to compare to something like a boosted Pyrrhic Kleos.

[Kyte]

Unless there's some factor I'm ignoring, BLU should be about the same as DNC in terms of benefiting from these changes. Both don't have a usable WS with an attack bonus but rather have good methods of raising attack (viability of /WAR for both, Nature's Meditation for BLU) and both have -defense abilities or spells (Steps for DNC, Tenebral Crush or Sweeping Gorge for BLU- 23% DNC vs 20% from BLU). However, DNC does have the benefit of potentially stacking their Steps with someone else's -defense ability (BLU or DRG). I guess some targets resist Tenebral but it's fairly rare outside of monsters with a strong wind or ice affinity.

[Byrthnoth]

Can you really land BLU debuffs on mobs like Maju without MAcc buffs? For some reason I remembered their debuffs being rather finicky in high level situations, but perhaps I'm remembering all those other debuffs like Breaks, Tourbillion, etc. that pretty much never land.

[Kyte]

They don't have the land issues they used to have (and most of the ones attached to magical blue magic never had the issue you're referring to), but I can't confirm at this time if they land well on things like Maju. If you were trying to, however, it'd certainly be with Tenebral Crush (which comes with a +35 macc trait) rather than with a physical so that you could just stack macc rather than a silly acc/macc hybrid.

[Mojo]

I'm wondering how well melee zerging might work now on a select few NMs

[Damane]

I'm wondering how well melee zerging might work now on a select few NMs

honestly too much of a hassle to setup with all teh buff swaping etc etc compared to just chilling it with magic burst setups ¬.¬

[Julian]

Confirmed. I'm no master japaneser, but the symbols are the same between the old 119 Death Penalty and the new. They just messed up localization.

So they DIDN'T "fix" the ranged mythics?

Lame!

Was so pumped and ready to resub and finish my gastra. But now... idk.

Maybe this might spark some people complaining on the official forums as to why these mythics don't actually do this as well?

[Byrthnoth]

I'm wondering how well melee zerging might work now on a select few NMs

I think melee zerging might be dead as a concept due to skillchains. It is at least knocked down to two melee, or you pretty much abandon skillchains.

[Sechs]

This is more or less all the WS with attack bonus modifiers:

Viper Bite +100%, Mandalic Stab +75%, Spinning Slash +50%, Ground Strike +50%, Penta Thrust -12.5%, Drakesbane -18.75%, Blade: Kamu +31.25%, Iron Tempest (+0% - 50%), Steel Cyclone +50%, True Strike +100%, Retribution +50%, Detonator/Empyreal Arrow +100%, Ascetic's Fury +100%, Howling Fist +50%, Tornado Kick +50%, Resolution -15%, Tachi: Yukikaze +50%, Tachi: Gekko: +100%, Tachi: Kasha +65%, Tachi: Shoha +37.5%, Requiescat (-0% - 20%).

While it never got thoroughfully tested, it's believed that Blade: Shun too (which has a small penalty at 1000) becomes pretty fast an attack bonus.

[Mojo]

honestly too much of a hassle to setup with all teh buff swaping etc etc compared to just chilling it with magic burst setups ¬.¬

I'm talking about the specific set of NMs where this doesn't work as nicely as you'd hope (if at all.)

I think melee zerging might be dead as a concept due to skillchains. It is at least knocked down to two melee, or you pretty much abandon skillchains.

Isn't skillchain damage affected by MDT/MDB? I can think of a few mobs that don't take much magic damage.

[detlef]

What's the range of yields from parcels/cases and boxes?

[Atomic Skull]

You're looking at ragnarok. Apoc gets haste+10 acc+15.

Anyways, relic x3 proc is still x3.

Tracking my hits for about 10 minutes now.

Highest proc crit is 486, highest regular crit is 160, which is x3.03.
Highest proc hit is 316, highest regular hit is 107, which is x2.95

Was beating on Uragnites

I didn't pay any attention to proc rate

Proc rate is going to be the only thing they might have adjusted. That's the only thing that changed with the previous relic upgrades.

[Tarage]

Do we still not have any info on what armor was added this patch? Nothing at all?

[Funkworkz]

Added armor to the update page.

[Yeager]

Just came across a DRK JSE Scythe augmented

Rank 9 - Accuracy +46, WS Dmg +7%, DMG +7

I'm assuming Rank 15 will be Accuracy +70, WS dmg +10%, DMG +10

[Sechs]

If anybody's wondering about Coeus, SCH JSE weapon, Rank 13 is Macc+44, Mab+9, FC+4.

/sigh