February 2016 Version Update - Discussion & Findings

[Fwahm]

It's not like it's any better for those of us that put 0 value on the glowing. I'd give up the glowing if it took off even 1% of the requirement.

[dasva]

So would I. But if I have to do the big trial I'd at least like to get the same benefits from it. Especially with the legendary weapons that were already the most expensive to make to begin with

[Fwahm]

At least you see it as a "benefit".

After I get mine, I might just dat swap them to the non-glowing versions, and the stat bonuses for aftermath are negligible.

[Sechs]

It is. Asura also happens to be the most commonly recommended server for new/returners because the English community seems most active there, in part due to reddit, I guess.

I dunno, people keep claiming Reddit here, Reddit there, I don't think I've ever even seen the pearl once.
Been on Asura over 13 years and it's always been the same, with due differences.
I hardly doubt Reddit has such a big impact in the shout scene tbh.

At least you see it as a "benefit".

After I get mine, I might just dat swap them to the non-glowing versions, and the stat bonuses for aftermath are negligible.

^ totally this, and I agree with your previous post as well.

[Sephiran]

The new UNM Glazemane reacts to any magic damage--from additional effects, skillchains, weapon skills, or cast magic--by using Riddle and Heat Breath consecutively. Heat Breath does damage over 10,000 and is generally fatal and the Riddle effect reduces your Max MP to zero. Breath damage is safe as are debuffs that don't deal damage. The NM also appears to gain increasing base damage, possibly in response to how many buffs he is able to dispel with his En-Dispel. That I am currently still testing, but the magic triggers are for certain.

Basically, he's like our old raptor friend from ye olde Tojil days but with annoying En-Dispel that even dispels your food.

Special thanks go to Ayasha of Bahamut for helping me test skillchains.

Addendum: Since I'm no longer at fore of all newer content thanks to school and other circumstances, I'm not much of an authority on the subject anymore. Quite sad really. But don't take my word for it. Here's a JP video for which you may discern the heuristics for yourselves:

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm28217198

Also, an NM like this coming in the same update bears some dramatic irony in light of this post:

Well just wait a little while. Doesn't change the fact that RNGs have a range advantage that needs to be balanced with its damage output. Eventually we'll have some mobs with dangerous AoEs that you can't nuke for good damage. RNG bangwagon come along more times than any other job.

All that you've said has come true with a vengeance.

[arus2001]

I dunno, people keep claiming Reddit here, Reddit there, I don't think I've ever even seen the pearl once.
Been on Asura over 13 years and it's always been the same, with due differences.
I hardly doubt Reddit has such a big impact in the shout scene tbh.

It's sort of a problem those who play comfortably within their circles experience: They can't see everything.

I don't use Reddit, myself, but I'm not blind to the suggestions I've seen in the past. Those actively inquiring about servers don't even have to join them implicitly, as well as us having no clue how many people silently follow the same advice. Simply being the "English NA server" could be enough to draw. Perceptions of "sameness" could essentially be a revolving door effect of people quitting getting replaced by others curious, but only for a time. Global searches simply aren't a good indicator if that's your metric.

This sort of, "We know we don't know..." from the player perspective is a backbone for a lot of my generalizations in MMO rhetoric, what should and shouldn't be happening. BG is arguably more bias toward endgame even if nowadays it's riddled more with casual, but not terrible players. They're likely more able to research and utilize what time they have more efficiently, but it's still easy to be overwhelmed or even find yourself lost without old friends around. Knowing what we don't know is why I always find census data fascinating when a game's dev team decides to share. Sure, XI's team could tell us how many RMEs are out there, as an example, but they actually don't tell us how many exist on unique characters/accounts. Simple knowledge like that could go a long way in debunking the myth that everyone has one of such weapons, even if they really are easier to get today than a few years back despite their prominence in the shout VW era.

Basically, the game still has its share of bullshit that some still stubbornly cling to in claims of it being a strength. Making the game more solo-friendly is something you'll see some MMO purists argue vehemently against. It's probably safe to say these people are in successful guilds/linkshells/whatever, not even in leadership positions, who don't quite go through the same trials in the same way as someone who isn't, can't play as much in a given week, might have inferior hardware, or simply lack the same degrees of execution and calculation. I mention solo play only because it's the inevitable conclusion of the argument against Abyssea, cutting large-scale content down to singular parties and even smaller subsets of that objectives depending. The bullshit arises in that you have people who want things to do, to tackle fairly challenging objectives, and to progress their characters... but they can't through no active fault of their own. For some twisted reason we have people who not only celebrate this dynamic, but would further chastise those caught up in it with claims of lacking skill, dedication, or social aptitude, further escalating into jargon like welfare epics or just plain wanting something for nothing. And, of course, that such is totally killing the sense of community within the MMO scene because reputations may no longer matter or that you don't have to play with people you loathe just to get shit done. Those sorts of politics and drama don't intrinsically make a game better, instead only really extending the time sink if you're willing to endure.

Cynical as I can be, I simply can not play an MMO anymore thinking anyone and everyone can be my bestest best friend, just as I don't really hold the same expectation of some cashier at a grocery store. I go to them with an objective in mind, we get it done, then part ways. It may seem cold, but it's symbiotic in its own way. Pleasantries can still happen, of course, plus I've flirted with cuter ones from time to time. And that easily extends to tackling MMO content. The trick is to obviously make it easy for people to come together for whatever goal, if needed, and not to breed situations where it's more beneficial to play more the role of a parasite. That happens when you start making things stupid rare, highly contested, and overall inaccessible. Those with lesser morals may take to things like ninja lotting, outright lotting on everything, stealing guild resources if they're able, botting, and other shady activities. People suck, and while an individual may not, I find reducing the temptation to be an asshat can actually lead to people being nicer. They just have to try if they do want to make that friend. No, not all will take, and that really shouldn't be viewed as a personal failure. However, if I have someone around who claims to be a friend, I want it because they happen to like me and not because I'm a meal ticket to that phat loot they're after. Too many horror stories of "friendships" like that crashing and burning, firsthand and otherwise.

I realize this has gone on way longer than it probably should've and wasn't quite meant to come off as a, "You know nothing, John Snow!" kind of post, but sometimes that white knight in my blood just wants to type... and type... and type. Bed nao~

[wipers]

It's sort of a problem those who play comfortably within their circles experience: They can't see everything.

I don't use Reddit, myself, but I'm not blind to the suggestions I've seen in the past. Those actively inquiring about servers don't even have to join them implicitly, as well as us having no clue how many people silently follow the same advice. Simply being the "English NA server" could be enough to draw. Perceptions of "sameness" could essentially be a revolving door effect of people quitting getting replaced by others curious, but only for a time. Global searches simply aren't a good indicator if that's your metric.

This sort of, "We know we don't know..." from the player perspective is a backbone for a lot of my generalizations in MMO rhetoric, what should and shouldn't be happening. BG is arguably more bias toward endgame even if nowadays it's riddled more with casual, but not terrible players. They're likely more able to research and utilize what time they have more efficiently, but it's still easy to be overwhelmed or even find yourself lost without old friends around. Knowing what we don't know is why I always find census data fascinating when a game's dev team decides to share. Sure, XI's team could tell us how many RMEs are out there, as an example, but they actually don't tell us how many exist on unique characters/accounts. Simple knowledge like that could go a long way in debunking the myth that everyone has one of such weapons, even if they really are easier to get today than a few years back despite their prominence in the shout VW era.

Basically, the game still has its share of bullshit that some still stubbornly cling to in claims of it being a strength. Making the game more solo-friendly is something you'll see some MMO purists argue vehemently against. It's probably safe to say these people are in successful guilds/linkshells/whatever, not even in leadership positions, who don't quite go through the same trials in the same way as someone who isn't, can't play as much in a given week, might have inferior hardware, or simply lack the same degrees of execution and calculation. I mention solo play only because it's the inevitable conclusion of the argument against Abyssea, cutting large-scale content down to singular parties and even smaller subsets of that objectives depending. The bullshit arises in that you have people who want things to do, to tackle fairly challenging objectives, and to progress their characters... but they can't through no active fault of their own. For some twisted reason we have people who not only celebrate this dynamic, but would further chastise those caught up in it with claims of lacking skill, dedication, or social aptitude, further escalating into jargon like welfare epics or just plain wanting something for nothing. And, of course, that such is totally killing the sense of community within the MMO scene because reputations may no longer matter or that you don't have to play with people you loathe just to get shit done. Those sorts of politics and drama don't intrinsically make a game better, instead only really extending the time sink if you're willing to endure.

Cynical as I can be, I simply can not play an MMO anymore thinking anyone and everyone can be my bestest best friend, just as I don't really hold the same expectation of some cashier at a grocery store. I go to them with an objective in mind, we get it done, then part ways. It may seem cold, but it's symbiotic in its own way. Pleasantries can still happen, of course, plus I've flirted with cuter ones from time to time. And that easily extends to tackling MMO content. The trick is to obviously make it easy for people to come together for whatever goal, if needed, and not to breed situations where it's more beneficial to play more the role of a parasite. That happens when you start making things stupid rare, highly contested, and overall inaccessible. Those with lesser morals may take to things like ninja lotting, outright lotting on everything, stealing guild resources if they're able, botting, and other shady activities. People suck, and while an individual may not, I find reducing the temptation to be an asshat can actually lead to people being nicer. They just have to try if they do want to make that friend. No, not all will take, and that really shouldn't be viewed as a personal failure. However, if I have someone around who claims to be a friend, I want it because they happen to like me and not because I'm a meal ticket to that phat loot they're after. Too many horror stories of "friendships" like that crashing and burning, firsthand and otherwise.

I realize this has gone on way longer than it probably should've and wasn't quite meant to come off as a, "You know nothing, John Snow!" kind of post, but sometimes that white knight in my blood just wants to type... and type... and type. Bed nao~

The main thing I get from this is people suck.

[Viar]

The main thing I get from this is people suck.

So much negativity.... I genuinely feel sorry for those who think people suck. Nothing I can help though, sadly.

[arus2001]

I actually do believe there are more nice, well-meaning people out there we generally never see. It's just that connecting with them is a monumental case of luck. I pressure devs to give us tools to mitigate that, but XI is functionally behind here in part due to age and SE's stubbornness.

Otherwise, it's just kind of human nature to recall the negative experiences more readily. Relating to MMOs, success is pretty binary. You win a fight or you don't. You get a drop or you don't. You find a party or you don't. The fight itself may grant knowledge in how to succeed in future attempts, but failure could still be a direct result of gear or other factors outside your control (like someone sucking or not knowing the fight themselves). Drops could be offset by alternative methods of acquisition, either of that item itself or close competitors. The party thing's kinda been covered already, but I'd just re-emphasize LFG tools, cross-server functionality, and the transfer fee thing.

It's just when all of this gets out of hand, alongside typical gating mechanisms, you wind up with big chunks of a game people simply can't play even though they want to. With Zi'tah being the beginnings of that wall for players nowadays, I think it'd be difficult to argue someone isn't missing a lot of content afterward, and in some cases prior.

[Viar]

I actually do believe there are more nice, well-meaning people out there we generally never see. It's just that connecting with them is a monumental case of luck. I pressure devs to give us tools to mitigate that, but XI is functionally behind here in part due to age and SE's stubbornness.

Otherwise, it's just kind of human nature to recall the negative experiences more readily. Relating to MMOs, success is pretty binary. You win a fight or you don't. You get a drop or you don't. You find a party or you don't. The fight itself may grant knowledge in how to succeed in future attempts, but failure could still be a direct result of gear or other factors outside your control (like someone sucking or not knowing the fight themselves). Drops could be offset by alternative methods of acquisition, either of that item itself or close competitors. The party thing's kinda been covered already, but I'd just re-emphasize LFG tools, cross-server functionality, and the transfer fee thing.

It's just when all of this gets out of hand, alongside typical gating mechanisms, you wind up with big chunks of a game people simply can't play even though they want to. With Zi'tah being the beginnings of that wall for players nowadays, I think it'd be difficult to argue someone isn't missing a lot of content afterward, and in some cases prior.

I find nice people in FFXI all the time, without the need of LFG tools. It's very easy to avoid people sucking or not knowing the fight if leader spend 3 min to check gears and explain strategies.

I think you just have way too much negativity. That may be the reason why you don't find nice people in FFXI, because negativity generates more negativity from others.

[dasva]

At least you see it as a "benefit".

After I get mine, I might just dat swap them to the non-glowing versions, and the stat bonuses for aftermath are negligible.

meh. However you want to see it it is extra.

[Sechs]

Otherwise, it's just kind of human nature to recall the negative experiences more readily.

I'd say more personal nature than "human nature".
I can relate to your "binary way of thinking" but it's an extreme simplification.

We're again within the realm of personal views and experiences but I personally can think about many, many, many experiences that cannot be placed either in the "success" nor "failure" scenario.
Regardless to that, I'm not sure how you think this is FFXI's fault, specifically FFXI's lack of LFG instrument.

Aside from that fact that for the LFG to work you need to structure the game in a way where the "role" counts instead of the job, and to achieve that you need an extreme simplification that clearly isn't possible in a game like FFXI that's closer to a sandbox than a themepark when it comes to roles stratification.
But really, even if it were possible, how would the situation be better if FFXI had an LFG instrument?


Do you feel your human relations are better in a game like WoW or FFXIV where the LFG instrument is the key for grouping? Really?
Because I can see that affecting the *efficiency* of your grouping if you measure by failure or success, but this has very little to do with the quality of human relationships between players in a MMO environment.
If anything the LFG instrument doesn't make it better but worse. What it does is allow you to ignore them, since you're able to successfully complete or even just participate in content without having to be troubled about interacting with other human beings.

Not saying you're not entitled to like this solution better, it's perfectly within your rights. I'm just questioning that this has very little to do with the quality of relationships, if anything it makes them worse by allowing people to override them.

[Viar]

I'd say more personal nature than "human nature".
I can relate to your "binary way of thinking" but it's an extreme simplification.

We're again within the realm of personal views and experiences but I personally can think about many, many, many experiences that cannot be placed either in the "success" nor "failure" scenario.
Regardless to that, I'm not sure how you think this is FFXI's fault, specifically FFXI's lack of LFG instrument.

Aside from that fact that for the LFG to work you need to structure the game in a way where the "role" counts instead of the job, and to achieve that you need an extreme simplification that clearly isn't possible in a game like FFXI that's closer to a sandbox than a themepark when it comes to roles stratification.
But really, even if it were possible, how would the situation be better if FFXI had an LFG instrument?


Do you feel your human relations are better in a game like WoW or FFXIV where the LFG instrument is the key for grouping? Really?
Because I can see that affecting the *efficiency* of your grouping if you measure by failure or success, but this has very little to do with the quality of human relationships between players in a MMO environment.
If anything the LFG instrument doesn't make it better but worse. What it does is allow you to ignore them, since you're able to successfully complete or even just participate in content without having to be troubled about interacting with other human beings.

Not saying you're not entitled to like this solution better, it's perfectly within your rights. I'm just questioning that this has very little to do with the quality of relationships, if anything it makes them worse by allowing people to override them.

Sorry for being blunt but LFG in FFXIV doesn't increase the success rate of PUG, more like the other way around because it prevents any measure leader can do to increase the success rate of party. When it was out it didn't filter gears, so undergeared people tend to fail the fight. Then SE added gear score check to it was a bit better, but inexperienced people still fail the fight. The worst part is that you can't really coordinate nor communicate with your members until you enter. It wasn't until 1 or 2 fails that you find out one member don't know what to do. By the time you find out people already ditch the party.

And the worst part is that you can't even invite them back and reform because they're from different server. Your only choice is to try next PUG and see if you get lucky.

Also since you can't send tell in FFXIV, it also prevents leader to solve individual member issues in tell... you join a pt and it's either win or fail, and it's mostly luck dependent.

Basically it's like forcing every party member to gain some sort of communication malfunction by severelly hindering peoples coordination and social skill.

But I guess for people without coordination and social skill to begin with, it doesn't matter.

[Sechs]

Sorry for being blunt but LFG in FFXIV doesn't increase the success rate of PUG

I don't know if does increase the success rate, I think we would need to agree on a scale to measure it, creating a set of factors we can use to do so.
I was kinda saying it increases the *efficiency* of finding a group. With a LFG instrument you don't have to wait for specific shouts or to create your own. You just activate the instrument, get in queue, and wait for your spot, period.
If this is the perspective you're using to evaluate the scenario then yes, LFG creates more "efficiency".
If for some reason in a game without an LFG instrument you're unable to even make a group start, then of course having it would increase the chances for success (as low as they may be, they would be certainly be higher than 0%, which is the chance you get if you can't even start a group)

But this is where I was starting to debate Aurus' post. If you're making it a matter of "efficiency" under this perspective I can understand the pros brought in by an LFG instrument. It's just that Aurus was talking about "human relationships" and imho that has absolutely nothing to do with an LFG instrument. If anything, as I was saying, LFG makes them worse because it allows you to ignore them so you can get into a group and not saying a single word with the other human beings you're playing with.


So yeah, I think Aurus post was a bit confusing and hence why I wrote my reply above.

[Damane]

For gods sake please dont add that cancer shit of duty finder to XI. as much convenient it is, i see alot more detrimental factors to it...

[Sephiran]

For gods sake please dont add that cancer shit of duty finder to XI. as much convenient it is, i see alot more detrimental factors to it...

I can guarantee you now that that will never happen in FFXI. The game has always forced you to socialize. Even if we were bleeding subscribers it would not happen.

[NynJa]

Sorry for being blunt but LFG in FFXIV doesn't increase the success rate of PUG, more like the other way around because it prevents any measure leader can do to increase the success rate of party. When it was out it didn't filter gears, so undergeared people tend to fail the fight. Then SE added gear score check to it was a bit better, but inexperienced people still fail the fight. The worst part is that you can't really coordinate nor communicate with your members until you enter. It wasn't until 1 or 2 fails that you find out one member don't know what to do. By the time you find out people already ditch the party.

Holy shit this is like the worst of the worst thing to ever be created. I dont know how they thought that's a good idea.

[arus2001]

When I think of some kind of group finder for XI, it's not something intrinsically role-based like you'd see in other MMOs. Mechanically, it'd just be a UI you could search where people have flagged themselves as interested for a particular piece of content like Voidwatch, Zi'tah, Ru'Aun, BCs, etc. with jobs you feel functional (with perhaps a coded restriction like you can't flag Reisenjima with a 37 WHM). It wouldn't automatically clump people together, but instead point you to those you could send a tell to. Otherwise, the big problem with XI is you either have to sit in town monitoring shouts hoping something you want comes up or keeping tab on an FFXIAH window where there's a bit of a delay in seeing messages, thus possibly missing out on a group. If you're out in the field trying to do more menial things, again with Trusts as noted earlier, you're fucked.

Cross-server functionality would be more like that found in Rift or GW2. Let's say the above UI existed, you could also peek at other servers to see who's looking for what. If someone on Bahamut sees a group on Asura, they could then click a button to be temporarily ported to Asura so they could participate. None of this XIV BS where you can never talk to or possibly see the same person again. Why I'm further gung ho about the abolition of transfer fees is that a system like this can also facilitate testing the waters of a new server before committing to a jump. You don't have to "lose" what friends you have on the old world just because your schedules and needs don't align enough to get stuff done in a timely manner.

Look at it another way. You're someone whose peak play time is typically in the 1am-4am EST range. NA population for a singular server isn't going to be too hot here as even the PST crowd will generally be beginning to wind down for bed. People like this are spread out across all the servers, perfectly fine players, but they can't even attempt to do certain things because manpower just doesn't jive. Put the above in place and they could actually hope to come together, get things, possibly make new friends, converge on a single server, start their own LS, and do more than what was possible without. Some might argue this is possible outside the game by using a forum like this, the OF, or otherwise, but talking to people like this isn't the same as playing with them. Nor is everyone keen on dropping that transfer fee on an uncertainty. Nor does everyone view such outside resources, like it or not.

I'm not saying this would be something "easy" to implement for SE, but I don't think an unwillingness to try helps us, either.

[Sephiran]

One more thing, as for the viability of catching up through Escha content: You can solo all the T1 NM's in Escha Zi'Tah. Same in Ru'Aun. Many in Reisenjima ones are soloable, but may take multiple tries to get the strategy down. My advice and my rule that I enforce for every first-time fight for a new Reisenjima NM: Don't fight at Reisenjima #09. I don't want to give everyone else a show if I wipe. Always do a pop point that people don't generally frequent.

And if you wipe, do NOT ask for help on that NM from people who saw.

[Fwahm]

But how hard are they to solo without already having vorseals and escha gear? Vorseals alone can give well over 100 accuracy, for example, which can mean the difference between capped and minimum hit rate.

That's also assuming that everyone has a job that is good at soloing lower Escha NMs. Someone who's only decently geared job is white mage is going to have a good amount of trouble soloing most escha NMs, especially if they're using older gear.

Plus, people who are just now catching up are unlikely to have all of the good trusts that make solos like these so much easier; for example, Amchuchu isn't available right now, and August can be very hard to get if unlucky, and many Escha NMs just tear through other, inferior tanks (especially if you have low vorseal readouts).