WARNING SPOILERS!! Captain America: Civil War - Discussion Thread - SPOILERS!!

[Hirronimus]

First of, let me start by saying... Holy shit this movie was great!!

Epic fight scenes. Very smooth story flow. Twist at the end, was well delivered too.

Can not wait for Black Panther solo film.

Also, as I previously stated in Avengers Infinity thread. This movie /could/ have worked if it only involved Cap, Bucky, Zemo and T'Chala. Zemo's motives could have been something else to make the plot more fleshed out. But I think the two plots, the registration act and Bucky's redemption, worked well together. I guess I am just greedy and wanted to see two Marvel films. lol

[DrClout]

Heh! Aight, let me start off also by saying it was a good film but not great. Before and after I was Team Iron Man not because of whose on the team but simply how I can relate to Tony over Steve. In a nutshell, everything played out exactly like I'd imagine it did with the exception for the final fight. That shit hit me right in the feels. FUCK!!! I turned to my friend who graciously took off work to come with me and said, "mah niggah, if you ever pull sum shyt like dat, bes bolieve somebody gonna get bodied!"

I didn't feel Zeemo moved the plot much himself. He was a trigger but otherwise he was simply chillen. I understand his involvement but it felt week. I am thankful though that we was captured alive and not killed. So we have what. . . Loki and Zeemo left alive amungst all the fallen? Also, T'Challa. Damn good acting and representation. I loved the pride of a warrior and king he gave off. I loved the furry and persistence. Airport scene was definitely a hype feast but thankfully Marvel is Marvel and Tony had the lines to make sure you know they knew it was lulz worthy.

I've read through the original and the second Civil War events. I first came upon them reading the Death of Spiderman. To me at least, this was a production in name and extremely vague execution alone. I guess as the viewer we're seeing everything and the characters are seeing so little but to me at least, nothing Steve did seemed worthy of him doing it. Just pure selfishness for his own sake and not the selfishness to keep the team safe from the rest of the world.

Choreography of fights was well done as expected of a Captain America film (thus far the only truly hand-to-hand combat film in the series). Dat Aunt May doe! FalconXWinterSolider (the "I hate you" scene had me messed u). I wanted to understand more (possibly missed it) Clint's motivation for joining this fray. Anyone can say the "Registration Act" but this was more of the Superheros being Supervised than anything else. My point is that if he's retired, da fuq does he really care.

I'm pretty sure I have more but my post is already poorly constructed and a basic example of clusterfuckism.

[Hirronimus]

Clint's motivation was to keep his friends out of jail. That's why he came to take Wanda away and why he was prepared to engage Vision, albeit very poorly.

What I perceived of Cap's motivation, lay deeply in his beliefs stemming from World War II and the beliefs of that era. Where he fought for the freedoms, and being an ideologist, it was hard for him to let those ideas go. You have to remember, the man has been unfrozen for less than a decade. A lot of what happened during his time on ice, in US and the world, did not sit well with him, even if he wasn't vocal about it. Even in his letter to Tony in the end, he conveys those emotions, by stating he wasn't sparing Tony the truth about his parents, but rather avoiding it himself. It's hard on Steve to accept the change, and that's why he's reluctant to do so, but as the movie progresses, his fears and suspicions are given validity, not only about Bucky but also about the act and the motivations of people behind it. That's why I voted TeamCap. Unlike Tony, who is so eager to discard everything, Steve weighs and approaches everything with patience and care. Also, it was nice to hear his speech, even though it was Sharon who said those words during Peggy's funeral. (The one about planting yourself and refusing to move.)

Tony's motivation comes from guilt. He even admitted that he fucked up by making Ultron. But even more so, he was "The Merchant of Death". And was damn proud of it. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve a second chance. That's why Avengers in a way were his redemption project. But he failed even that, because as soon as a little bit of problems or blame began to be placed on their shoulders, he was too eager to sign the documents. Why wasn't he put on trial as chief engineer that actually made Ultron? Many times during the movie other characters have told him to reign in his ego. Cause that is his biggest enemy. Himself.

It's a difficult choice to make. Both sides have made very compelling and valid points. But it comes down to simple analogy. An unstoppable force against an immovable object.

[Alistaire]

Zemo's plot seems stupidly over-extravagant. So the main goal is to tear the Avengers apart from within. He's got footage showing Bucky killing Stark's parents, so great, he's got what he needs to drive that wedge. Draw out Bucky by framing him, ok that makes sense. What doesn't make sense is why make it more complicated than that? Just send Stark the vid of his parents' death, draw Bucky out, relay info to just Iron Man about Bucky's whereabouts, maybe even misdirect Cap so Iron Man has a clear shot. Throw in the Black Panther plot for reassurance.

But to count on Iron Man getting the information about the framing and then Cap's location from Falcon and count on him going in solo to then spring the info on him about Bucky?

[DrClout]

For Tony, I don't think it was eagerness as much as say, a matter of course. I think right after AoU he would have done the exact same things. Him admitting his wrong doing in both films and both occasions shows his character growth at the very least. He was proud of his mantle as the "Merchant of Death" but LOTS has changed not only in the world but in his character as a whole. Each event has provided more change and evolution to his character as a whole. His ego will always be there as it's a plot device and just who he is (da dude hit on Aunt May RIGHT THERE!).

For Steve, I feel he's been the same guy he has always been since WWII, the one to stick up for the underdog. The guy to go in alone to save his 1 and only friend regardless of how wrong it is. And he didn't fight for ideologies and freedoms, he didn't like one group killing another group and wanted a chance to help stop that. It was coincidental he got the chance to become what he is today. He definitely hasn't been thawed out long but he's definitely gotten acclimated with the current times (CA2 took care of that notion). Steve didn't weigh much and patience wasn't on the top of his list. I suppose he weighed telling Tony about who really killed his parents as that would have progressed the storyline further and direction not ideal to his own wishes. If he was patient he'd at least have gotten one of the smartest people on the planet to help him think of a way out of the situation they ALL were in instead of just thinking of himself and Bucky (not even his blind follower Falcon). The speech was nice but it definitely and always has been Steve to plant himself and refuse to move.

It was an easy choice for me to be Team Red as I understand Tony's personality and knew he'd fuck up and own up to it before it was time to roll credits. In the same breath, I knew Steve would fuck up and stand firm with that fuck up til it got him or someone else seriously injured.

[DrClout]

Zemo's plot seems stupidly over-extravagant. So the main goal is to tear the Avengers apart from within. He's got footage showing Bucky killing Stark's parents, so great, he's got what he needs to drive that wedge. Draw out Bucky by framing him, ok that makes sense. What doesn't make sense is why make it more complicated than that? Just send Stark the vid of his parents' death, draw Bucky out, relay info to just Iron Man about Bucky's whereabouts, maybe even misdirect Cap so Iron Man has a clear shot. Throw in the Black Panther plot for reassurance.

But to count on Iron Man getting the information about the framing and then Cap's location from Falcon and count on him going in solo to then spring the info on him about Bucky?

I immediately thought of this the moment I figured out who he was but then realized Tony would have Googled the fuck out the video for answers all silent and brooding like. It wouldn't have achieved the effect we got with everything and the fall out. I think it was good and I'd have preferred him get a little more screen time or involvement. It seem he just set up the pieces and simply played Dominoes afterwards.

[Alistaire]

I immediately thought of this the moment I figured out who he was but then realized Tony would have Googled the fuck out the video for answers all silent and brooding like. It wouldn't have achieved the effect we got with everything and the fall out. I think it was good and I'd have preferred him get a little more screen time or involvement. It seem he just set up the pieces and simply played Dominoes afterwards.

Yeah I get that about Stark but if you set it up so it looks like Bucky killed someone else's father right after Tony finds out and then Tony gets to be solo chasing him down for that murder it could've been heated. And even if not the fact that Tony ended up in the situation at the end of the movie with just Cap and Bucky was very far from a sure thing.

[Hirronimus]

In the same breath, I knew Steve would fuck up and stand firm with that fuck up til it got him or someone else seriously injured.

The same can be said about Vision eviscerating Rhody. Granted, indirectly, but that is Tony's fault and the fallout that comes with it. Also, his cold blooded shot at Falcon when all the guy wanted was to apologize... that was. Ugh. Honestly, I did not expect that reaction from him. I don't want to brand Tony a killer, but given the right pressure he will kill. Whereas for example in the end fight, Steve stopped. I'm not saying Steve didn't kill before, but given a situation, I think he would have saved, even Red Skull. Tony would have went all the way and then later repented.

I agree with you in that sense that it is part of Tony's character to make mistakes and then learn/grow from them, but that can be said about any human being. I founded interesting what Clint said when Tony came to visit the Vault; "Ladies and Gentlemen, the great Futurist." And that's the point. If he is such a genius, how is it that he cannot calculate the outcome and the fallout that comes with his inventions/actions?

(da dude hit on Aunt May RIGHT THERE!).

Dude, Marisa Tomei is so delicious.

[Ker]

I am happy we had no unnecessary big action set piece in the third act. also that scene where Tony sees the video is perfect. It's one thing to be told that Bucky murdered his parents, but to actually see it?


I didn't like the force romance between Cap and Sharon but there kiss reaction did give us the biggest laugh in the theater.

[Hirronimus]

Just to piggy back off my previous post and add a bit about the Captain.

His actions stem also from purely virtuous motivations. Courage, humility, righteous indignation, sacrifice and perseverance, the five basic virtues are what drives Cap. He would not ask anyone to do what he would not be willing to do himself. He offers his recruits a choice, whereas Tony coerces and manipulates his. Example: Spider-Man. Captain believes that everyone not only should be given an opportunity to choose for themselves, but also the opportunity to correct their mistakes. That's why he believes in his friend, Bucky, and wants to help him. On the flip side, Tony looks elsewhere for solution to the problems caused by his actions. Shit, he even shamed others when he pointed out that it was him who flew the nuke into vortex over New York. That's not humility and sacrifice, that's arrogance and self righteousness.

[tyven]

more like captain ayn rand right guys

[tyven]

seriously great movie tho. didnt have the overall tightness that winter soldier did but god damn it was well done considering all the moving parts. spidey SLAYED

[Hirronimus]

seriously great movie tho. didnt have the overall tightness that winter soldier did but god damn it was well done considering all the moving parts. spidey SLAYED

As I said before, if they kept it a Bucky redemption story, it would have played well on it's on. Hell, they could have killed off Captain at the end, effectively passing Falcon or Buck the mantle and that would have worked great too.

[Krandor]

Spider-Man was fucking great, and man Marisa Tomei is still so fucking hot.

Zemo was pretty crappy both in terms of relation to the comic version and as a character overall.

Not to Winter Soldier levels, but definitely still one of the better Marvel movies. I was legit surprised they didn't kill Steve, kept waiting for it and never happened.

[tyven]

I think they want Chris Evans and RDJ around for infinity war stuff. After that I bet cap gets clapped and Ironman recast. god damn RDJ and Cheadle were looking OLD in this

[Krandor]

Yeah Cheadle looked ancient in this movie

[Odesseiron]

I love Winter Solider for the story, it's bar none the best. HOWEVER, this is my new overall #1 CBM.(It was Winter Solider) The plot was fine, I'm annoyed they killed yet another villain (even if he is sorta minor), but whatever it's normal. Everything just worked SO WELL. The jokes, (oh my fuck the laughs from the kiss scene) Spider Man, the action scenes were incredible. Seriously, how do you top the Black Panther chase scene? Or him fighting Winter Solider, or the airport fight? Giant Man! Seeing it again this weekend, no questions then gotta simmer on it for a few more days and probably see it a third time.

I was kinda hoping Cap went on trial and got shot at the end, but yeah they want him around to lead for a while.

Random bits, the CG.makeup work on RDJ for the tech device was amazing. Cheadle was grandad status. Marisa Tomei could still get it, and I cannot wait for Spider Man solo movie.

I also LOVED when Lang went Giant, it felt like he had weight to him and just wasn't moving around like nothing. It made all the difference.

One minor thing that bugged me was all the superhero landings. I mean Cap and Buck have serum so fine, but BP? Unless he had his suit on under the clothes. I mean the dude is in top physical shape, but even he can't jump stories and land perfect.

And jesus tapdancing christ that BP costume.

Give up DC, you're done.

[Alistaire]

On a minor note it was funny how Tony tries to understand Parker's powers by purely technological means even though he's already seen the likes of the Hulk, Thor, and the twins.

edit: Oh! and for the Community fans... Dean!

[Gabai]

Just left the theater. Great movie overall. Good pacing. Tony's motivations were meh to me initially (some mom guilt tripping him about his son felt weak and shoehorned) but they did make it a point for him to list all his fuck ups and pepper leaving so it works somewhat.

Is BP serum infused? I'm guessing the warrior king with his resources could develop something similar but he was running as fast as cap/Bucky and I'm not sure if that was plot device or he's 'enhanced'.

Seriously thought one of the three in that final scene would die.

Fredrick Zoller was the bad guy, can't hate on my boy because Inglorious Bastards was an awesome movie.

Airport scene was fantastic. The choreography for the fights left nothing to be desired. Spidey was great, really captured the way I'd imagine him to be.

There's about a dozen other things that I'm thinking right now but this is a long enough post and my ADD is kicking in.

[Krandor]

It might be explained differently in the movies, but Black Panther's power is half tech based and half mystical/magic shit.

Tony's motivation is pretty in line with how it was portrayed in the comic storyline (though comic Civil War and the movie was vastly different). Both instances was grief stricken moms guilt tripping him with a sob story.