WARNING SPOILERS!! Captain America: Civil War - Discussion Thread - SPOILERS!!

[Zealot]

I guess that depeonds on your perspective. He gets to keep being an Avenger, Captain America and his team are all criminals, the Accords he pushed for are the law.

[Tyrath]

Theres no way that counts as a loss for Tony.

[TheDirtyHobo]

The fact that there's so much debate about who "won" and who "lost" kinda proves what I was going for about it being an inconclusive end. The situation wouldn't have been any different if they had ended the movie 30 minutes earlier.

[Hirronimus]

Did you expect Mission Accomplished banner over Stark mansion?

[Kaslo]

Did you expect Mission Accomplished banner over Stark mansion?

Yes, I want a banner over Stank Mansion.

[TheDirtyHobo]

No, but I expect the teams to be unified again by the end of the film. Obviously some bleed-over from previous movies is fine, but unless there's a "Part #" attached to it, the stories should be predominantly self-contained. The "you have to have read X to fully understand what's happening in Y" mentality is what relegates comic books to such a niche audience, and it would be incredibly stupid to bring that into comic films as well.

[Deftscythe]

The ambiguity of the ending is part of the point. It's reflective of the moral ambiguity the characters struggle with throughout the film. It's also a great way to keep the audience invested during the 2 year wait before we see all the Avengers together again.

Edit: Replies happened while I was posting. Dude, have you never seen Empire Strikes Back? Y'know, the nearly universally agreed upon best Star Wars?

[AidenCarby]

I guess that depeonds on your perspective. He gets to keep being an Avenger, Captain America and his team are all criminals, the Accords he pushed for are the law.

He gets to be an avenger only when the UN decides its ok for him to be an Avenger, his best friend is now crippled, and the very government he works for is on the fence over jailing him, not to mention he lost the capstone battle of the movie where cap broke his suit. Tony didn't get anything he fought for, The Avengers are no longer The Avengers. It's literally him, a crippled Don Cheadle, and Vision.

[kuronosan]

And Peter.

[Kaslo]

And Peter.

and Peter's hawt aunt

[TheDirtyHobo]

The ambiguity of the ending is part of the point. It's reflective of the moral ambiguity the characters struggle with throughout the film.

I like the idea that you think there's supposed to be some deeper commentary on the human condition that challenges the audience's perception in "Big Cartoon Action Movie #13"

Edit: Replies happened while I was posting. Dude, have you never seen Empire Strikes Back? Y'know, the nearly universally agreed upon best Star Wars?

That really old movie with the snow planet and the big walker things? But more seriously,

but unless there's a "Part #" attached to it, the stories should be predominantly self-contained

[Zealot]

He gets to be an avenger only when the UN decides its ok for him to be an Avenger, his best friend is now crippled, and the very government he works for is on the fence over jailing him, not to mention he lost the capstone battle of the movie where cap broke his suit. Tony didn't get anything he fought for, The Avengers are no longer The Avengers. It's literally him, a crippled Don Cheadle, and Vision.

He got everything he fought for. The fight at the end was about the Winter Soldier killing his parents, it had nothing to do with the Accords anymore. Tony won that fight. A phyrric victory is still a victory.

[Deftscythe]

I like the idea that you think there's supposed to be some deeper commentary on the human condition that challenges the audience's perception in "Big Cartoon Action Movie #13"

If that's your perception of comic book movies, then why are you complaining about the ending or any story aspects at all? The action in this movie is phenomenal, you should be satisfied since it was never going to deliver anything more, right?

And there's always a "part #" attached to an MCU film. That's what the MCU is for. If you're going to be upset about the story not being self-contained, why aren't you complaining they didn't take the time to reacquaint us with the main characters? Why are you okay with the expectation that the audience has seen at least 5 other MCU movies, but not that they'll come back for the next big tentpole film?

[kuronosan]

Except there was a definitive ending. If you look at it as a Captain America movie, like you're supposed to.

He's left the Avengers to Tony and assembled his own team of people he can trust, while tending to his "innocent the whole time" friend. In the end he turned out to be right that no matter their desire to save the world the government would just threaten prison or ignore them instead of listen.

He didn't want that oversight, because as heroes there's no politics or commands, they save the world because it's the right thing to do.

He then breaks out Scott, Hawkeye, and Sam because they helped him. He reconciled with Tony, made a move on Sharon, and will continue fighting what he feels is right.

He even gained two allies in T'Challa and Black Widow.

Yea, pretty definitive ending. The point of the movie was that there wasn't supposed to be a "villain". You were supposed to see different sides of a conflict that was morally ambiguous.

[Deftscythe]

^ This. Also, the reason people argue about who "won" is because another theme of the movie, though this one is a bit corny, is that when you have to fight your friends, no one wins.

[tyven]

u know why this is so stupid is because at the end of avengers 2 tony was leaving the team but now basically tony is the only team. oh well

[Silenka]

I like the idea that you think there's supposed to be some deeper commentary on the human condition that challenges the audience's perception in "Big Cartoon Action Movie #13"

...this is actually a bit depressing.

The reason people don't think the Marvel movies are complete shit or forgettable like most action movies is because the narrative is solid and often more than what "just an action movie" would be able to give. Comic books are not just bad guy loses, good guy wins. It's a lot more complicated than that. There is grey area, hard decisions, and yes, quite a lot of 'deeper commentary on the human condition that challenges the audience'.

http://imgur.com/gallery/IluRw

[AidenCarby]

He got everything he fought for. The fight at the end was about the Winter Soldier killing his parents, it had nothing to do with the Accords anymore. Tony won that fight. A phyrric victory is still a victory.

He didn't kill Bucky(who despite losing his metal arm still got away and exited the film on his own terms), got his suit smashed and if Cap wanted to he would have killed him. He lost Black Widow, and he was "fighting" to keep the Avengers together which SPOILER ALERT: DIDNT HAPPEN

"YOU DONT DESERVE THAT SHIELD, MY FATHER MADE THAT SHIELD" doesn't sound like a winner to me. Also the word you're looking for is pyrrhic

[Zealot]

He didn't kill Bucky(who despite losing his metal arm still got away and exited the film on his own terms), got his suit smashed and if Cap wanted to he would have killed him. He lost Black Widow, and he was "fighting" to keep the Avengers together which SPOILER ALERT: DIDNT HAPPEN

"YOU DONT DESERVE THAT SHIELD, MY FATHER MADE THAT SHIELD" doesn't sound like a winner to me. Also the word you're looking for is pyrrhic

Nothing keeping him from finding more Avengers.

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[Zealot]

Also get that spelling error shit out of my house, go fellate a taser with that "the word you're looking for has one letter transposed," I can practically hear you pushing your glasses up your nose and smirking.

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