WARNING SPOILERS!! Captain America: Civil War - Discussion Thread - SPOILERS!!

[Hirronimus]

Sorry, but nope. Cap just did what he wanted to do because he's unable to play ball with the rest of them. "Oh, every piece of evidence shows my friend committing this atrocity? Better assist in his escape endangering the lives of multiple law enforcement officers because I personally believe he's innocent rather than rely on due process to prove his innocence." And he ends up caught anyways, which just gets them in more trouble and causing tons of physical injuries and property damage in the process. The important plot points of the film would've happened the exact same way if Cap had signed with the added benefit of not paralyzing Rhodie, making half the team outlaws, losing his shield, and being seen as a rogue menace by the general populace. And he would've had the flexibility to act outside the Accords still if he ever ran into a situation that genuinely warranted it (like, say, BW did). Instead he's put himself in a position that he can barely help anyone, justified or not, or he'll risk having every nation attacking him on-sight. At best he's a spoiled child who has no grasp on the concepts of subtlety and nuance required to make these decisions anyways. At worst, he's a literal psychopath.

Vision is the only person who was right in the entire movie with his line about "Our very strength invites challenge."

You are officially worse than Macross.

If you bothered to watch Winter Soldier, you would know that Bucky was a brainwashed pawn of Hydra from the jump. Knowing this (it was revealed to Rogers by Zola), Captain or any other reasonable human being would at least attempt an investigation and find out who was pulling Bucky's strings. What UN did was a kneejerk reaction to a terrorist act. The bombing was not an open act of war and therefore, more than likely needed an Interpol intervention. Which was not the case, so already UN and Vienna police, are not playing by the book. People seem to think because America hunting down the terrorists for domestic bombings is the right thing to do, then that's what had to happen. There's an internation due process that has to be followed. What Cap did, was interfere in an unjust exercise of the law, which in turn branded him as outlaw.

The so called added benefit of not paralyzing Rhodie was in fact due friendly fire by your lord and savior, Vision. Even he said he was distracted when he fired the shot. So you cannot put that blame on Cap. AT ALL.

Also, he lost his shield because he felt pity for the sniveling pathetic mess that was Tony.

The only thing I can agree with in the Accords, is Avengers blatant disregard of sovereign border breaches. But then any Covert Op has and are breaching borders on the daily to perform reconnaissance and assassinations. So it's a grey non-issue.

P.S. I hope you are just trolling, because if you are serious, you can't possibly be this naive. Tony was wrong. Accords are wrong. Ross even wronger. Hell, even BP who was for the accords, rejected them.

[Deftscythe]

Given the technology available in the MCU, I don't think the single picture makes for an open-and-shut case. Honestly, I'm pretty surprised everybody jumped on the bandwagon based on the one picture.

This was one of the few things that bugged me about the plot of the movie. When the picture came out, no one mentioned that electronic face mask thing BW used in Winter Soldier to look like the council woman. If I'm Cap trying to defend Bucky, that would be the first thing on my mind.

[Iono]

meeh, given his history it wouldn't come as a surprise if it was real. I'm sure even Cap just thought he was being brainwashed again.

[dasva]

This was one of the few things that bugged me about the plot of the movie. When the picture came out, no one mentioned that electronic face mask thing BW used in Winter Soldier to look like the council woman. If I'm Cap trying to defend Bucky, that would be the first thing on my mind.

You and I thought of it but Cap is a bit more straightforward and was only thinking of his bro

[TheDirtyHobo]

Except that Cap would never do that. He wouldn't sign and then think "I can just go back on my word later." He'd realize that having to act outside the Accords was inevitable, and never sign. If you don't get that, then like Kuro said, you don't get the character.

Yes, I get that. But that doesn't make it anything but an incredibly naive viewpoint what proves he does not have the moral awareness to make the kinds of decisions he claims he should be in charge of. He doesn't do "the right thing," so much as "the most immediately right thing" and then tries his hardest to fix its consequences later on.

If you bothered to watch Winter Soldier, you would know that Bucky was a brainwashed pawn of Hydra from the jump. Knowing this (it was revealed to Rogers by Zola), Captain or any other reasonable human being would at least attempt an investigation and find out who was pulling Bucky's strings. What UN did was a kneejerk reaction to a terrorist act. The bombing was not an open act of war and therefore, more than likely needed an Interpol intervention. Which was not the case, so already UN and Vienna police, are not playing by the book. People seem to think because America hunting down the terrorists for domestic bombings is the right thing to do, then that's what had to happen. There's an internation due process that has to be followed. What Cap did, was interfere in an unjust exercise of the law, which in turn branded him as outlaw.

I saw WS, and I know all this. And considering the guy a few scenes ago (I assume that's supposed to be Crossbones?) claimed Bucky was back in captivity, my first assumption as Cap would be to capture him and keep him somewhere he can't continue on any more orders he may have; he even says this pretty directly with "I'm the least likely to get killed doing it." I'd like to see what there is to back-up your claim that the raid was illegal, though.

The so called added benefit of not paralyzing Rhodie was in fact due friendly fire by your lord and savior, Vision. Even he said he was distracted when he fired the shot. So you cannot put that blame on Cap. AT ALL.

Also, he lost his shield because he felt pity for the sniveling pathetic mess that was Tony.

It's not his fault in the sense that he directly did them, but it was all a direct cascade caused by his initial choice. If he hadn't made his choice, none of those things would've happened.

The only thing I can agree with in the Accords, is Avengers blatant disregard of sovereign border breaches. But then any Covert Op has and are breaching borders on the daily to perform reconnaissance and assassinations. So it's a grey non-issue.

P.S. I hope you are just trolling, because if you are serious, you can't possibly be this naive. Tony was wrong. Accords are wrong. Ross even wronger. Hell, even BP who was for the accords, rejected them.

The accords are wrong in the sense that they're pointless restrictions to make some politicians feel like they're in control of the situation. Stark did the right thing for the wrong reasons; he wanted someone else to blame for the consequences of his actions. Ross was wrong because he was just generally prejudiced against powered people.

BP is a complete mess of a character, analytically. He says he supports the accords but acts as a vigilante and only wants revenge, which is clearly outside of the scope or permissions of the accords. Then he realizes the error of his ways and goes anti-accord despite the fact that he's an even bigger posterboy for why oversight is necessary than Stark.

And no, I'm not entirely serious, but I'm not really trolling, either. It's more a counterpoint to kuronosan's statement about Marvel movie stories being actually-good instead of action-movie-good. If you put it under any sort of critical lens, shit falls apart real fast. It wasn't meant to be analyzed anything more than skin-deep. Which is completely fine, just don't pretend it's something more meaningful.

[Zealot]

Maybe we're watching different movies, man. Everyone's motivations made total sense and lined up perfectly with previous movies.

Stark goes out on his own a whole bunch and does what he feels like doing, resulting in a lot of people dying and him feeling responsible. He thinks "man, I need oversight, and logically, all super heroes need oversight."
Cap immediately went to work for the government after getting out of the ice and the result was finding out the government lies and manipulates and can be subverted. He thinks "Heroes have to be able to act independently, or they will be exploited."
Black Panther thinks "My father supports these accords, and I support my father." Then T'Chaka gets blown up (everyone thinks) the Winter Soldier and he thinks "I am angry my father was murdered and want revenge."

Capturing Bucky becomes the collision course. Stark wants to obey the government and stay out of it, letting them shoot Bucky on sight. Cap ignores the government and rushes to help his friend. Black Panther comes to kill him.

The end result of all this isn't happy for anyone, except Panther, who moves past his need for revenge, and that's more or less the point.

[kuronosan]

Okay, let's talk arcs:

1) Cap - most obvious. Consistently standing up for the little guy who has no voice. In 1, it was the Allies. In 2, it was America. In 3, it was the world (and mainly Bucky).

2) Stark - next most. Every mistake he makes costs him something dear. By the Avengers he thought he was all the world needed. Turns out it has the rest of the Avengers. When the aliens come he can't deal, saves the world, but then goes into freak-out mode thinking he needs to start being more a futurist by doing everything he can to "prevent" problems. Sound familiar? It should. It sounds just like Project Insight. Something that Cap learned from but Stark never did because he never lost anything. Pepper never died in IM3. Stark blew up his suits to demonstrate his love for Pepper but never really stopped wanting to save the planet. Ultron comes around he sees an opportunity to retire and let someone else fight the good fight. He fucks up again. Saves the world, but at the cost of destroying a capital city. This time he can't hide that shit. By the time CW comes out, he's tired, he's lost Pepper, all he has is the Avengers, and now they fuck up. So, being the futurist, he tries to "prevent problems before they happen" again by signing the accords. CW plays out.

3) Black Widow - supports Steve, but agrees with Stark. There isn't much else to say. She knows Cap won't give up trying so she knows there's no point in stopping him because they're supposed to be heroes.

4) Hawkeye - owed a debt to Wanda because Pietro saved his life.

5) Ant-Man - hired by Sam to help out because of his talents, doesn't particularly care about the law because he's got a criminal record anyway.

6) Spidey - new to the hero scene, wants to impress Tony Stark because he's a big fan and wants to do what's right to avoid another Uncle Ben. Is wooed by Stark's idea that Cap is the robber and the world is Uncle Ben.

7) Sam/Rhodes - the main characters' best war buds

8) Bucky - should be pretty obvious

9) Wanda - scared of the world but wants to do what's right, doesn't particularly like Stark but trusts Cap. Defends him because his attitude towards her fuck-up was "Hey, these things happen. Don't blame yourself Wanda. You did what you could" whereas Stark was like "Hey Vision keep her inside so she doesn't kill anyone and so they don't deport her"

10) Panther - least complicated motive. T'Challa supported his father's wishes because his father was the king and believed the accords could prevent another catastrophe where the collateral damage was unacceptable. Only problem is when his father went the peaceful route, he was "assassinated" and passed the kingdom on to his son. This set up a collision course with Cap/Stark because he supported accords and realized once his father was killed that the only way to prevent these was to act outside of the law. He ended up consumed by revenge and pursuing Bucky/wanting to get him and really didn't give a crap about the conflict with Cap/Stark at all. Most EVERYTHING he says to another character is an extension of that attitude, which basically amounted to "I'm getting revenge, get the fuck out of my way". It wasn't until the end of the movie, when he sees what vengeance can drive you to do (Stark, Zemo) that he decided to let it go. Not only did he realize Bucky was innocent the whole time and it drove him to nearly kill an innocent man, it wasn't worth the cost to his soul. Neither Zemo nor Tony understood that.

So yea, given the scope and motivation of the characters in the movie, Tony was doing what he thought was right for all the right reasons, but was still in the wrong. Cap was the only character in the movie that was acting on virtue alone and in the spirit of the Avengers, and that's why BP and BW follow him in the end.

[tyven]

its actually all cap's fault cuz he let bones play him like a bitch in the beginning and then scarlet witch blew up a bunch of innocent people trying to save his bacon. WHOOPS

[Hirronimus]

I am not going to retype what the others have already explained, but to answer your Interpol question, here are the basic tenets of their constitution.

1. To ensure and promote the widest possible mutual assistance between all criminal police authorities within the limits of the laws existing in the different countries and in the spirit of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
2. To establish and develop all institutions likely to contribute effectively to the prevention and suppression of ordinary law crimes.

They established a Task Force in the movie to hunt down Bucky. More than likely at the behest of UN and in cooperation with Interpol. Considering a kill squad was sent by the Romanian police, it's safe to assume their intentions were elimination rather than capture. So, going back to the constitutional prerogative under which international criminals are investigated. Any law enforcement agency, first and foremost action is to apprehend and bring to trial, NOT to raid and destroy, that is the job for military. So yes, they broke the law by going outside of the scope of their responsibilities.

[Fhloston]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...5043281cef.jpg

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[Krandor]

On a lighter note, Arrested Development is part of the continuity now.

https://www.reddit.com/r/comicbooks/...civil_war_the/

Short version - The Russo brothers directed a couple episodes back in the day, and the Bluthmobile was in the background of the airport scene.

[Myrrh_Quetz]

I feel like people are looking for faults in this movie so they don't have to admit it was a good movie. People did it with Deadpool too. Yes, there were a few plot holes, its a 8 year MCU movie. Not everything is going to be perfect considering that Tech and Magic are things.


I mean shit. If people want to nitpick that badly. HOW DOES TONY STARK HAVE A IRONMAN SUIT IN A WATCH AND GLASSES. THAT MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL. METAL CAN'T GROW.

[DrClout]

On a lighter note, Arrested Development is part of the continuity now.

https://www.reddit.com/r/comicbooks/...civil_war_the/

Short version - The Russo brothers directed a couple episodes back in the day, and the Bluthmobile was in the background of the airport scene.

That's pretty awesome lol

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[Obev]

I feel like people are looking for faults in this movie so they don't have to admit it was a good movie. People did it with Deadpool too. Yes, there were a few plot holes, its a 8 year MCU movie. Not everything is going to be perfect considering that Tech and Magic are things.


I mean shit. If people want to nitpick that badly. HOW DOES TONY STARK HAVE A IRONMAN SUIT IN A WATCH AND GLASSES. THAT MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL. METAL CAN'T GROW.

Dude he had parts of the suit stored in his bone marrow in the comics for a while. What even is science fiction.

[Xno Kappa]

I feel like people are looking for faults in this movie so they don't have to admit it was a good movie. People did it with Deadpool too. Yes, there were a few plot holes, its a 8 year MCU movie. Not everything is going to be perfect considering that Tech and Magic are things.

This always happens whenever there's a legitimately good movie. You'll always have those one or two individuals who'll shit on it just for the sake of being against popular opinion.

[Obsidian]

So was Pepper not in this movie because the actual plot needs her somewhere else? Or is there a contract issue with Gwyneth Paltrow?

[Tyrath]

Probably because the movie was already front loaded with stars so they didn't really need to get someone's love interest in on top of everyone else.

[Cantih]

Well it certainly wasn't schedule, she hasn't been in anything since Mortdecai besides Glee (though the film was shot before TV, but premiered after), but anyway both those were done filming long before CA:CW started filming, and the only upcoming stuff hasn't even started filming yet.

[Akiyama]

Just had someone legit say to me

straight face and all

that Ultron was a much better movie than Civil War because Whedon is a genius

I mean I understand opinions and all, but my brain hearts.

[Eurell]

I was ok with no Pepper. Tony talking about why they aren't together helped fix the horrible ending of Iron Man 3 a little bit.