WARNING SPOILERS!! Captain America: Civil War - Discussion Thread - SPOILERS!!

[Serra]

Zemo's plot seems stupidly over-extravagant. So the main goal is to tear the Avengers apart from within. He's got footage showing Bucky killing Stark's parents, so great, he's got what he needs to drive that wedge. Draw out Bucky by framing him, ok that makes sense. What doesn't make sense is why make it more complicated than that? Just send Stark the vid of his parents' death, draw Bucky out, relay info to just Iron Man about Bucky's whereabouts, maybe even misdirect Cap so Iron Man has a clear shot. Throw in the Black Panther plot for reassurance.

But to count on Iron Man getting the information about the framing and then Cap's location from Falcon and count on him going in solo to then spring the info on him about Bucky?

It was more than just having Stark fight Cap though, he blamed all the Avengers. If he had just sent Stark the film, he would have been purely motivated by revenge and harder to rally around. He went on a gamble that Cap, based on his history, would not just let Bucky get killed or captured, Stark would want to bring him in, and then the Avengers would fall into one of the two camps. He called in the murder in his hotel room, and with the way Stark is connected, I don't think it is a stretch that he would find out about it. That said, I will concede it was a stretch was that Stark would get the info on Cap's whereabouts after the fight

I was expecting the revelation that the prince of Wakanda, the nation which had seemingly been pushing the accords, was also acting as a vigilante would undermine the accords by the end of the movie. Also, how is this going to work with the Black Panther movie -- aren't have the Avengers hiding out in Wakanda now?

[tyven]

Y'all seem to be forgetting that the whole TeamCap v TeamIM thing is not about whose personality is best. Even in books, people joined the team of their choice based on their personal reasons. I am TeamCap because fuck concentration camps. Fuck government collars. And fuck ungrateful pricks who wanted you to clean up their mess, and in the end blame you for causing damage. Shit, even Tony himself, subtly implied during his speech at uni, you gotta break some eggs, son.

One thing I will agree with Ross on though. Avengers acting without impunity across the world and breaking international border rules, does need to be reigned in. But those are the laws criminals end up abusing. Even then, government covert ops, still go in, extract or eliminate the threats without the host country ever learning about it or being paid off.

We can debate the personality cult till the cows come home, but that's not what sparked the Civil War, it just added fuel.

fuck regulation and fuck armies and fuck organized government and fuck the terrible people put into power by the citizens because everyone should do what they want cuz this is america land of the free home of the brave and captain america is america and america is liberty and liberty is libertarian so no one should ever have to answer to anyone because they are just following the will of man

[Lyall]

I was really surprised we didn't get Cap's death at the end. I figured it would either be Sharon or Black Widow; Hell, I thought they were foreshadowing when Widow had her comment about "I know someone who knows where he's going" and then they cut immediately to Sharon meeting Cap, Falcon and Bucky. Hydra mind control is sort of a thing going on and I wondered if they're pull the trigger on it.

Niggling thoughts: Vision didn't appear to be doing shit for the first bit of the airport fight. Black Widow intentionally interferes with Black Panther trying to stop Cap and Bucky and... then just vanishes for a while? Shouldn't she be in the Raft with the others for helping them escape? I also didn't know how to feel about Cap driving the shield into the power source for Stark's HEART since we know the suit is powered by the same thing. Also also, we see the Raft is a submarine prison that requires clearance to enter. How did Cap just show up at the end to save everyone?

Really loved the movie, thought Spider-Man was a perfect Spider-Man and am really excited to see where we go from here. I think what makes me love the MCU more and more is that when big story points happen in the films, it changes the status quo. DC is really swinging out of their league here.

[Hirronimus]

Yeah, man. Fuck that terrible government system that spent resources and man power to recruit and activate the Avenger Initiative. Its one thing to put down a rabid dog, the other thing is to shift the blame entirely on the dog and not the terrible owner who raised the so called dog.

Also, you can stop with the trolling, Try-ven.

[Nekonaruto]

The Ark reactor no longer powers his heart as far as I know. They removed the shrapnel at the end of IM3.

[Lyall]

The Ark reactor no longer powers his heart as far as I know. They removed the shrapnel at the end of IM3.

Oh, duh. I totally forgot about that.

[Serra]

Vision didn't show up at the airport till they were making a dash to the quinjet.

No one 'fought' Black Widow as opposed to the rest of Cap's team which were all beaten by the end of the fight, so it was only after Black Panther told Ross afterwards. I was actually pretty curious what happened to her after Stark tells her that Ross knows and they'll be coming for her.

[Ohemgee]

Quick thoughts on my first viewing (because I'll watch it again next week): Best comic book based movie since the Dark Knight. My viewing experience was kind of shitty (third row...) and I'll definitely go back to watch what I missed in the first viewing.

Pro's:

-Controlled story; no end of the world plot, no Captain America taking down an army. The focus was on characters and their relationships with each other.
-Every character felt like it had a purpose in every scene and their motivations were clear (even if it felt rushed like Hawkman and introducing Peter). Besides Cap+Iron Man; Scarlett Witch and Vision, Black Panther origin story, Bucky (being the main driver of the film).
-Spider-Man! For fucks sake, finally a good portrayal of Spider-Man.
-Zemo (primary "antagonist") didn't shine because he really didn't need to. This is a movie about internal drama and ideology and not about flavor of the month villains with a McGuffin.
-Comedy was well timed. I felt that Ant-Man and Ultron felt too witty and forced in to be "fun".
-THE AIRPORT SCENE IS THE BEST ACTION SET PIECE IN ALL LIVE ACTION COMIC BOOK MOVIES EVER.
-The Russo brothers really know how to do an action movie. It felt like watching Jason Bourne for the first time, the drama and story take precedent so that you CARED about the fight scenes.
-The sound was amazing, when you watch it the second time, pay attention to the sound more than the action (I had to sitting so close).
-I can go in to detail about each character and how well they were written, but it speaks volumes.
-This movie does a better job setting up events for future movies and even acknowledging previous events that mattered to this plot.


Con's:
-Shaky cam. This was made worst by sitting too close and getting a headache after the Nigeria scene. What I liked best about Winter Soldier is that there were establishing shots that allow the viewer to breathe during intense combat scenes (GSP fight scene, Winter Soldier fight scene with the bus and highway, Tri-Skellion in the flying boat). Wide establishing shots aren't completely necessary, but almost all of the fight scenes were up close. It gave a sense of closed quarters combat, but holy shit at how some of the scenes were edited at a jarring pace (Black widow in Nigeria doing hurricaranas on henchmen). That specific shot would of benefitted from a wider shot (Black Panther doing a Hurricane Kick is a direct comparison, better pay off).

-Spider-Man intro really came out of nowhere and felt last minute. This is a minor nitpick and I know that there was a set up and pay off with the MIT scene. I guess I'll stop there.

-Not so much of a Con, but at this point if you're not watching all of the MCU, you'd be fucked with some plot points. Oh well, fuck you.

[Hirronimus]

You have to remember, some of those close quarter tight shots, were done when a stunt double was performing the action, so the "shakiness" you're referring to was done on purpose to throw off the viewer from recognizing that it's not the actual actor. Especially in scenes like Widow's parkour chase and stairwell fight sequence with Bucky and Cap.

One other thing I'll add about this movie, that is definitely a huge plus. All the fight scenes were done in day light. None of this night time action scenes where the director tries hard to hide shitty CGI or distract viewer by blurring the picture. Fucking HATE night time sequences.

[Ohemgee]

You have to remember, some of those close quarter tight shots, were done when a stunt double was performing the action, so the "shakiness" you're referring to was done on purpose to throw off the viewer from recognizing that it's not the actual actor. Especially in scenes like Widow's parkour chase and stairwell fight sequence with Bucky and Cap.

One other thing I'll add about this movie, that is definitely a huge plus. All the fight scenes were done in day light. None of this night time action scenes where the director tries hard to hide shitty CGI or distract viewer by blurring the picture. Fucking HATE night time sequences.

I totally understand. Action film making requires a lot of deft handling. I guess my complaint is one perspective based on my experience so far (up close). When I rewatch it, those scenes would be a lot better. They did a hurricarana scene in Winter Soldier as well, not sure if that was the same editing as this one. I just like how refreshing the Black Panther combat felt, very excited for his movie. So many good things about this film.

[Ohemgee]

For the inevitable comparisons between Batman vs. Superman:

I look at these movies as films first because I wasn't a comic book reader. This film is objectively better than BvS. Honestly BvS shouldn't be a benchmark to compare Civil War to (some do, some don't). The experience felt closer to Avengers 1: so much led up to the Avengers and so much more led up to a drama and plot driven film like Civil War. Not to deviate too far from the film, but it really provides perspective about each studio and the steps they've taken to make people interested in their franchises. BvS had cool moments, but as a whole, it's shit. The questionable things in Civil War were easy to dismiss (How did Vision return to fight? Why didn't we see Hawkman get a call from Cap? You had 36 hours and flew Ant-Man from SF to Germany AND Peter Parker from Queens?)

Plot holes matter if you're not able to infer the decisions that were made both on and off screen.

[Hirronimus]

I totally understand. Action film making requires a lot of deft handling. I guess my complaint is one perspective based on my experience so far (up close). When I rewatch it, those scenes would be a lot better. They did a hurricarana scene in Winter Soldier as well, not sure if that was the same editing as this one. I just like how refreshing the Black Panther combat felt, very excited for his movie. So many good things about this film.

Yeah man, I watched BvS in IMAX theater in 4th row. Never again. My neck was killing me afterwards. Anything before 10ish rows is the worst seating possible in theaters.

BP took on WS, Cap, Hawkeye and Falcon(?) I think the best one was against the Cap. Especially that Street Fighter flying spin kick. Omg that was baller.

[tyven]

Yeah, man. Fuck that terrible government system that spent resources and man power to recruit and activate the Avenger Initiative. Its one thing to put down a rabid dog, the other thing is to shift the blame entirely on the dog and not the terrible owner who raised the so called dog.

Also, you can stop with the trolling, Try-ven.

Idk man they could have at least given the UN a shot. But nooooo

[Lyall]

Idk man they could have at least given the UN a shot. But nooooo

Government panels always conclude things in a timely manner. Considering how close Ultron came to killing the planet in A2, even a few hours waiting for a panel to convene meant everyone was dead.

[Serra]

I mean, I understand the sentiment of not letting Avengers, especially ones essentially housed in the US, have the freedom to just freely conduct operations in foreign countries, but at the same time, the events of Winter Soldier should give you pause at the notion of oversight committees. So it's a larger deliberative body. It can still be taken over by an organization like Hydra.

And yeah, the whole debate regarding urgency vs discussion, the larger the deliberative body, the longer it takes to deploy, and potentially worse the outcome.

[Lyall]

I mean, I understand the sentiment of not letting Avengers, especially ones essentially housed in the US, have the freedom to just freely conduct operations in foreign countries, but at the same time, the events of Winter Soldier should give you pause at the notion of oversight committees. So it's a larger deliberative body. It can still be taken over by an organization like Hydra.

And yeah, the whole debate regarding urgency vs discussion, the larger the deliberative body, the longer it takes to deploy, and potentially worse the outcome.

117 nations, if I remember correctly? Across the entire planet, and every timezone? Something like New York would still have taken an ice age to get permission to get out to.

There's a validish point when they talk about the smaller things: Crossbones comes to mind, since that was equal parts surveillance and putting in the work, but for reactive things, there's no way signing the accord was the correct choice. And that's not even playing the meta knowing that Thanos is waiting down the line.

[Salodin]

I just don't see how any super can be ok with the accords after hydra basically took over shield. Like, how do you even justify it after that?

[Krandor]

Because the UN isn't Shield?

[Lyall]

Right. A mostly-secret organization dedicated to combating evil got taken over by the bad guys they were fighting. Regular-old political corruption is small time compared to that level of infiltration.

[tyven]

Why run the risk of ever giving anyone power right guys?