WARNING SPOILERS!! Captain America: Civil War - Discussion Thread - SPOILERS!!

[Adajer]

Don't get me wrong. In that universe, its definitely safer for the Avengers to have free reign. They saved NY and the world from an alien invasion, and a nuke that was sent by the Security council. They stopped Crossbones from getting some biological weapon and killing god knows how many people with it. They have done so much good for the world, and it far outweighs any bad they may have caused.

But on the other hand, Tony built Ultron. The Avengers just gave Tony Stark an infinity stone to play around with, and he built a robot that killed tons of people. He built the robot to protect people, but it ended up killing. And then he faced 0 consequences for his actions. And even in Civil War, Cap was wrong! He fought his fellow Avengers so that he could get to the Hydra base and stop the other super soldiers. But they were never actually a threat.

Yes. Waiting on the UN to decide when to call the Avengers is a terrible idea because of how slow it would be to react to immediate threats. But you also can't realistically expect the world to just be ok with Steve Rogers deciding whats wrong and right, who deserves to live and die, on his own gut feelings.

I dont think you can say the other super sodiers were never a threat. No one knew what zemo was up to or that he would kill them. Or that they were frozen. You telling me they should have ignored a bomber who killed a king among other things as a means to an end to get access to said bunker containing 5 super soliders of winter soldier tier?
Captain America was not wrong, Tony was. And tony realized it when he saw half of his team in jail and his boss threatening to put him in jail as well.

Tony just wanted something to take away his guilt and have any future guilt on someone else.

[Gredival]

And even in Civil War, Cap was wrong! He fought his fellow Avengers so that he could get to the Hydra base and stop the other super soldiers. But they were never actually a threat.

While that's correct, it's not exactly fair. Putting aside the final twist of Zemo wanting the Avengers to tear themselves apart, for most of the movie you're basically seeing the very problem Cap had with the Accords play out: a threat is identified, the threat is imminent, and the overseeing authority doesn't care.

Which brings up the bigger problem with Zemo's plot. Getting Stank to Russia by revealing the dead psychiatrist's body and the prosthesis, ok. But it was pretty much dependent on 1) Cap's team getting detained and 2) ONLY Iron Man showing up from his team. If there was any more than Cap, IM, Bucky, and BP present at the lab, his plan doesn't work.

Tony might be overcome with rage because "He killed my mom," but literally everyone else in the movie would be helping Cap restrain him.

[Zealot]

Well it didn't work anyway, because the Black Panther found out as well. That aside, Zemo couldn't possibly have planned for Tony to leave all of his Avengers behind, but he knew it was very likely that if his plan worked out then by the time they got to the final stage Cap and Bucky would either already be dead or in prison, or if not the heroes would have suffered tremendous losses (which was correct - all of Cap's team was imprisoned, Black Widow was forced into hiding, War Machine was hospitalized, and Iron Man wasn't going to be working with the Vision again that soon out of the gate). Besides, even if they were able to stop them from fighting then and there, revealing to Stark that Cap's best friend killed his parents - and that Cap KNEW - was more than enough to destroy the Avengers, even without coming to blows again.

[Kaslo]

A lot of this talk (and talk I'm seeing from others in other places) is this idea that Zemo had the video of Bucky killing the Starks before getting to the Russian base. The conversation with the ex-Hydra agent in Cleveland implied that he didn't have all the info on the Stark Crash, and mentioned he would "need more blood" to get that info: ie drawing out Bucky so he could be captured and Zemo could interrogate to get the location of the Russian base.

[Hirronimus]

I just want to point out that Vision's logic is flawed, considering that the Avengers were formed in response to global threat, not the cause of it.

@Gredival: UN's response to dealing with problem was to kill Bucky. That's not exactly a justice way of dealing with things. I get he is considered dangerous terrorist and needs elimination, but isn't that just a legal form of revenge?

@Kaslo: I'm more curious as to how Zemo knew where the Russian dude lived or had the ties to Hydra/Winter Soldier program.

[tyven]

I just want to point out that Vision's logic is flawed, considering that the Avengers were formed in response to global threat, not the cause of it.

@Gredival: UN's response to dealing with problem was to kill Bucky. That's not exactly a justice way of dealing with things. I get he is considered dangerous terrorist and needs elimination, but isn't that just a legal form of revenge?

@Kaslo: I'm more curious as to how Zemo knew where the Russian dude lived or had the ties to Hydra/Winter Soldier program.

P sure it was germany's response to kill Bucky. Otherwise he would have actually been killed when the Avengers showed up and not captured/interrogated. That whole scene was kind of a mess because clearly Cap could have convinced the team to detain him. it really is best not to analyze a movie like this too much because nothing ends up making a lot of sense outside of "how else would they advance the plot".

[Lyall]

@Kaslo: I'm more curious as to how Zemo knew where the Russian dude lived or had the ties to Hydra/Winter Soldier program.

I was under the impression that Lt. Ruski wasn't Zemo's first hit. He probably killed or interrogated his way up the chain. If the impetus for his actions was his family being killed, and he wanted to tear apart the Avengers as a result, it makes sense he'd do his research to find who's got the best cracks to dig his crowbar into. If he was able to glean Cap and Bucky's history, and that Bucky was Winter Soldier, that's a decent enough starting point for a special forces guy in an action movie.

I liked Zemo in the film. If this was cast from a different perspective, he would be the disgruntled hero. I mean, his origin story here is basically Foreign Punisher, with Supers replacing the mob.

[Zealot]

I hope they've been saving these actors in hopes of doing a Thunderbolts movie somewhere down the line with Zemo, Batroc, and Abomination. I'm sure they can find some others down the line.

[Kaslo]

@Kaslo: I'm more curious as to how Zemo knew where the Russian dude lived or had the ties to Hydra/Winter Soldier program.

He specifically said that he used the data Black Widow leaked at the end of Winter Soldier.

[Sho]

@Gredival: UN's response to dealing with problem was to kill Bucky. That's not exactly a justice way of dealing with things. I get he is considered dangerous terrorist and needs elimination, but isn't that just a legal form of revenge?

What this showed us is that the UN/Thunderbolt Ross were at the time VERY poor choices to be an oversight committee -- they obviously did not come up with the idea of capturing, then cryogenically freeing the Winter Solider as HYDRA once did (due to being unstable), only an order to all sovereign nations to Kill on Sight if they engage with him. No deference or rationalization at all, despite possibly knowing that he was a brain washed solider. This and the fact that they likely had no enhanced information from S.H.I.E.L.D. at all.

@Kaslo: I'm more curious as to how Zemo knew where the Russian dude lived or had the ties to Hydra/Winter Soldier program.

The HYDRA files that Black Widow released to the internet after the events of Winter Solider. He decrypted the files pertaining to the Winter Solider and ascertained the relevant information for the handler. Zemo in the movie was pretty well written in my opinion -- he used subterfuge and cunning to have the Avengers go at each other since it became pretty obvious that he couldn't go toe to toe with any one of them as a group or individually. It also humanized him in the same vein as Black Panther and his motivations after T'Chaka was killed, revenge and being a causality of circumstance.

[DrClout]

Outside of everything, I would like to point out that Tony AND Bruce built Ultron in this MCU. Tony was the mastermind but he doesn't deserve all the credit

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[dasva]

The Accords needed to be signed regardless. If they didn't sign, they would be outlaws and the government would constantly be trying to arrest them. Literally no choice but to sign if they wanted to continue being Avengers, and then if they wanted to break the rules and try to save the world without orders, thats something they could deal with when the time came.

So what? Making random ultimatums and making people into "outlaws" doesn't really work that well when you can't back anything up. Or for that matter have already proven to make more disastrous decisions in those cases

[Eurell]

So what? Making random ultimatums and making people into "outlaws" doesn't really work that well when you can't back anything up. Or for that matter have already proven to make more disastrous decisions in those cases

How can they not back it up? Ross sent tanks and shit after the hulk years ago, he'd have no problem sending an army after the Avengers if they needed to be arrested. Are he Avengers supposed to spend all their time fighting the good guys because they're too stubborn to sign the paper?

[dasva]

How can they not back it up? Ross sent tanks and shit after the hulk years ago, he'd have no problem sending an army after the Avengers if they needed to be arrested. Are he Avengers supposed to spend all their time fighting the good guys because they're too stubborn to sign the paper?

Yeah tell me again how well that worked out?

As far as the dumb question goes I pose the other side. Is the entire world supposed to spending all their time and resources starting a war against people they don't stand a chance of winning against who consistently save their asses because they are too stubborn to not have said piece of paper? Seriously you don't get to just demand people do what you say or else and then call them stubborn for not agreeing

[Eurell]

"Just do what you say"

You mean, don't have free reign to attack anyone they they want in any country in the world? To have weapons of masssssssss fucking destruction and have 0 accountability for them? The Avengers let tony play with an infinity gem and it led to the destruction of Sakovia, almost the destruction of the world.

We as viewers know that the Avengers are awesome, theyre good people, and we can trust them to do whats best 99% of the time. The people in that universe though? Nah

[dasva]

Did I miss something? Did we watch the same movie? Because the brief explanations I saw in the film weren't about actually holding the people accountable or respecting the laws of other countries and such and instead making a body to completely govern over the Avengers.

It was much more about control and really deferring accountability (or at least the thought of it) to this governing body. I mean if they really wanted to hold them accountable they could've easily have said ok you don't have to sign but going to have a Superman senate hearing or some trial or investigation over past actions. Determine possible wrong doing or negligence and then throw Tony in jail for a bit. Instead it was sign or get sent enhanced person Gitmo. No trial, no rights, shoot to kill orders on capture. This isn't really sounding like a group of people with a lot of accountability

And you can harp on Sakovia sure but at the same time Tony saved New York from weapons of mass destruction fired by a governing body with supposed accountability. And then their was the whole Shield fiasco. So not sure if the average person of that universe is all that less trusting of the Avengers.

[Obsidian]

Speaking of Crossbones, is whoever hired him a hook for another movie? Or was he just a convenient way to get the Avengers to Nigeria so Wanda could accidentally blow up a building?

[Anoat]

Crossbones was like Count Dooku in Revenge of the Sith. Just a familiar enemy used as a catalyst to put the heroes in a compromising situation.

[Hirronimus]

We as viewers know that the Avengers are awesome, theyre good people, and we can trust them to do whats best 99% of the time. The people in that universe though? Nah

This was posted in other thread. Pretty sure public's opinion on collateral damage falls under the same opinion. It's safe to assume that regulatory aspect of accords were and are agendas of people in power. Even T Ross himself said, if he were to misplace a nuke, he'd have to answer for it. This is coming from a man who tried to cover his ass when Hulk was on rampage, all due to Ross's actions.

[Deftscythe]

Yeah, echoing what dasva said about accountability, let's say everybody signs the accords and then the Avengers do something the council doesn't like, the fuck is the council gonna do about it? Lock them up? Okay, let's say the Avengers allow themselves to be locked up(fucking lol @ getting banner to do anything he doesn't want), now what? Who's going to save you from the next disaster? Is the council going to treat the entire Avengers team like Hydra treated Bucky? Lock them up when you don't need them, only taking them out to clean up your bullshit? Good luck selling that to the public since it would basically be slavery.