1. FFXIV Reset Timers
    Last daily reset was 1 hours, 22 minutes ago / Next daily reset is in 22 hours, 37 minutes
    Last weekly reset was 2 days, 18 hours, 22 minutes ago / Next weekly reset is in 3 days, 15 hours, 37 minutes
+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 56 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 13 53 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 1112
  1. #41
    a p. sweet dude
    Pens win! Pens Win!!! PENS WIN!!!!!

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    16,607
    BG Level
    9

    Your gripe with elemental damage isn't entirely thought out, in my opinion. It existed in 1.0 and effectively barred certain classes from certain encounters because they didn't have access to the correct elemental damage. MNK specifically got pretty screwed because its Fist abilities had different effects but also converted all dealt damage to the element of the active Fist skill. Which meant you either were better off not using them at all (Ifrit) or couldn't use the one you wanted because it would turf your damage. It also turns into an itemization issue when certain gear enhances certain elements. I wasn't sorry to see it go in 2.0. I wish they would get rid of elemental materia.

    The design philosophy in 2.0 is clearly more about making things difficult mechanically, not statistically. The spammy nature of the combat is annoying for sure, but as far as I can tell (having never played it) it's not altogether much different from WoW's combat system. I definitely won't be complaining if they slow the pace down though. The "flashiness" of combat is definitely a subjective complaint and has nothing to do with the actual combat system.

    I don't really see the pace of combat affecting the "community building" either. That argument may have some merit if we were locked in combat 100% of the time, but most text communication occurs outside of battle.

  2. #42
    New Odin
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    8,827
    BG Level
    8
    FFXIV Character
    Teisha Linne
    FFXIV Server
    Moogle
    FFXI Server
    Bahamut

    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    I don't really see the pace of combat affecting the "community building" either. That argument may have some merit if we were locked in combat 100% of the time, but most text communication occurs outside of battle.
    But isn't it because typing in battle is almost impossible? You either risk getting hit by something or waste time not mashing buttons. That's why people either discuss everything prior to the battle and you're expected to fend for yourself during it or just use voice communication

  3. #43
    Salvage Bans
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    950
    BG Level
    5
    FFXI Server
    Odin

    there are certainly ways around this, like bringing back skillchains. In a game that encourages you to level multiple classes/jobs I do not see the problem. Also, perhaps developing core battle content that you can actually play with many people at once..like your FC. That way you can include other resistances too like magic/slashing/blunt/piercing. With open ended content without party requirements you encourage community as well as coordination by way of communication.

    The game was gutted the moment they decided to render enfeebling and enhancing effects pretty much obsolete. I especially enjoyed 1.+ when you could perform chains to enfeeble bosses with stun/paralyze/blind. That style of play is desperately missing from the current battle system.


    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    Your gripe with elemental damage isn't entirely thought out, in my opinion. It existed in 1.0 and effectively barred certain classes from certain encounters because they didn't have access to the correct elemental damage. .

  4. #44
    Old Odin
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    6,110
    BG Level
    8
    FFXI Server
    Asura

    Final Fantasy XIV: Stormblood - Early Summer 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Gokulo View Post
    But isn't it because typing in battle is almost impossible? You either risk getting hit by something or waste time not mashing buttons. That's why people either discuss everything prior to the battle and you're expected to fend for yourself during it or just use voice communication
    I definitly miss typing during combat/stuff even with strangers. And thats due to the battlesystem leaving no room for typing. This aint gonna happen ever with the current battlesystem.

    I also miss the ability to approach battles on a different method and discussing strategys. You have rhis fixed setup in 14 with almost no flexibility to go left or right. I allways found it exciting in 11 when unconventional methods arised for battlestrategy and new stuff was discovered(pup-tanks, geo-vex attunement strategys, fire resist sets etc). But this is never gonna happen in 14 with all the restrictions jobs, stats and abilitys have in 14.


    Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

  5. #45
    Chram
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    2,667
    BG Level
    7
    FFXI Server
    Quetzalcoatl

    Quote Originally Posted by Thiefami View Post
    In a game that encourages you to level multiple classes/jobs I do not see the problem.
    If only the dev team also made it possible to realistically gear multiple jobs/roles in near-BiS or BiS outright in a not-retarded timeframe.

    Then again I guess that's what drops from chests are for in Savage, because it sure as fuck isn't for getting anything I want.

  6. #46
    New Merits
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    206
    BG Level
    4

    Partly it's a case of meaningless input. You have the player mashing away at the keyboard by default in any given fight. Not for reasons of responding to what the monster is doing, what team-mates are doing or what the environment is doing - just by... default. This becomes an opportunity cost when it comes to tying up the player's hands.

    If the player is having to send input into the game it behoves the game-designer to make sure it is for meaningful reasons. Imagine playing through portal or half-life if you had to additionally keep tapping a "breathe" button every second...

    As for the flashy effects - Have you come across the quote that goes something like "if everything is special, nothing is"? If you've participated in any content with more than a handful of players you must be aware of how the screen becomes an unnecessary mess of colourful poop - even when nothing exciting is happening. Yes there are filters... but if players are having to turn your animations off (an expensive part of development) it's probably another symptom of something being off.

    The elemental stuff is - like I say just symptomatic of a restriction of depth in the post 1.0 mechanics. Remember how in 1.0 as GLA you could choose to slash or stab in order to get around traditional mob resistances or weaknesses? While the elemental and even physical damage types may come under "fluff" in an RPG... you must concede that there are very few fantasy settings where elemental magic doesn't have a rock-paper-scissors relationship between elements (I mean, Water puts out Fire... obvi...) and similar tropes for physical damage types and various monsters. You can debate the merit of those tropes but to limit all magic damage to just "magic damage" seems like a wasted opportunity.

    I don't really see any mechanical superiority in 2.0 - so much of it boils down to gear-related DPS-checks (which you beat by tediously grinding out the latest form of tomestone gear) or avoiding AoE insta-death zones. As far as enemies go it's usually "AoE these down" or "hard DPS this down". I'm not saying it's easy to come up with fresh content for the genre but so much of the 2.0 mechanics were already super played-out. Making XIV a WOW-clone draped in the FF franchise may have saved the title but it hasn't made it a great title. The trouble being it's not even as responsive as WOW.

    I agree with Thiefami - enfeebling systems are a good litmus for the mechanics in RPGs. So very many CRPGs over the years have had enfeebling systems whereby monsters you can enfeeble aren't worth the time to do so but monsters you really want to use enfeebles on are too strong for them to take effect (or make them too expensive to cast or whatever). See almost any DnD based CPRG or hack-n-slash dungeon crawler for the last 25 years.

  7. #47
    a p. sweet dude
    Pens win! Pens Win!!! PENS WIN!!!!!

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    16,607
    BG Level
    9

    Quote Originally Posted by Gokulo View Post
    But isn't it because typing in battle is almost impossible? You either risk getting hit by something or waste time not mashing buttons. That's why people either discuss everything prior to the battle and you're expected to fend for yourself during it or just use voice communication
    No, I think "community building" and "telling people to get the fuck out of the way" are being conflated here when they shouldn't be. The current combat system makes communicating during battle a pain in the ass but there's no "community building" happening during that time anyway. What it's actually inhibiting is the conveyance of important battle information, like "get ready to dodge."

    "Community building" happens outside or in between battles regardless of the combat system. Small talk during battle is not, in my opinion, the same thing.

    Based on the way gearing works currently I definitely would not say the game "encourages" you to level multiple jobs (more like the game allows it begrudgingly), nor is "encouraging" the same thing as forcing people to level multiple jobs because the one they like is useless in any given fight due to an arbitrary elemental restriction. No job should ever be excluded from a battle because the skills it has are inconveniently elementally attributed. The answer to being excluded from something should never be "change jobs." Even without all the elemental bullshit there are jobs that are in that situation now. That's a major fundamental design flaw.

  8. #48
    Salvage Bans
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    983
    BG Level
    5
    FFXIV Character
    Harold Saxon
    FFXIV Server
    Ragnarok

    I never played FFXI, but how did they deal with Elemental resistances? I personally think it can be a bit lazy, and as a BLM i'd be worried that the class may be completely useless against something that has a high fire resistance. It would be interesting if there was a mechanic for a BLM change its aspected damage type mid fight, but I doing it pre-fight with say trait points or something would be lazy imo.

    I actually really enjoy the combat in FFXIV. Sure it sucks at low levels, but its really fun at 60 imo. If you think the end game fights are needless button mashing, I question how many of these fights you've actually done. That said I would like to see some more choice in regards to rotation depending on situation. They've improved on that in 3.x (at least with BLM and differing mechanics in fights)

    And I also don't have any problem communicating mid fight. But I can understand your point about there being too many flashy abilities.

  9. #49
    E. Body
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    2,294
    BG Level
    7
    FFXI Server
    Leviathan

    for most of the game's life XI had black magic tiers that you learned in a specific order as you leveled(Stone, then Water, then Aero, etc; Stone II, then Water II, then Aero II). A major shortfall of this system was that there was an innate damage gap between the spells even within the same tier. Stone IV, which you learned in the late 60's, was considerably weaker than Thunder IV, which you learned at 75. So being forced to target weaknesses often lowered a BLM's damage output. A bit of an extreme example, because they had plenty of content that had broader weaknesses, but silly none the less. They more or less fixed this, just entirely too late.

    on the subject of button mashing though, has SE ever mentioned anything about built in voicecom? I feel like that would be a huge help for DF

  10. #50
    Salvage Bans
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    950
    BG Level
    5
    FFXI Server
    Odin

    XIV also had elemental resistance/weaknesses

    Fire->Ice->Air->Fire
    Earth->Lightning->Water->Earth
    Light<->Dark

    For the most part, all spells had decent potency, blackmages had a tier system for their elemental line with the exception of dark and bio. Whitemage was needed to complete the elemental wheel as it provided air, earth, and light.

    If your encounter had a resistance you would simply use another element that is either neutral or strong against the target type. It isn't like present day xiv where thunder is just a dot, the thunder line was devastating direct damage in 1.+.

    As a blackmage you had 3 or 4 tiered spells within the element line, all performed in different ways and would setup combos based on the order you used them to maximize damage or cause a certain status effect.

    If you were fighting a target with fire resist you would avoid using ice & fire, and instead use water. If water was unavailable, you could use thunder, which is neutral to both.

    As you can see rotations existed, but they weren't as long and were dependent on a few variables of the encounter. Your target's elemental resistance/weakness, for example, along with it's moveset (what kind of enfeebling effects you need, this was also determined by the combo).

    Definitely not as lazy as we have it now

    Quote Originally Posted by haroldsaxon View Post
    I never played FFXI, but how did they deal with Elemental resistances? I personally think it can be a bit lazy, and as a BLM i'd be worried that the class may be completely useless against something that has a high fire resistance. It would be interesting if there was a mechanic for a BLM change its aspected damage type mid fight, but I doing it pre-fight with say trait points or something would be lazy imo.

    I actually really enjoy the combat in FFXIV. Sure it sucks at low levels, but its really fun at 60 imo. If you think the end game fights are needless button mashing, I question how many of these fights you've actually done. That said I would like to see some more choice in regards to rotation depending on situation. They've improved on that in 3.x (at least with BLM and differing mechanics in fights)

    And I also don't have any problem communicating mid fight. But I can understand your point about there being too many flashy abilities.

  11. #51
    CoP Dynamis
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    265
    BG Level
    4
    FFXIV Character
    Serenseven Dertavernen
    FFXIV Server
    Excalibur
    FFXI Server
    Asura

    To expand on Dotsudoku's point, 95% of elemental magic cast in XI (at least in the ToAU days, which is when AI was most active) was either Thunder or Blizzard, which were the highest and second-highest tiers, respectively. The difference in potency was enough that if you were faced with an earth/water/wind-weak mob, you often cast Thunder or Blizzard anyway. The game had a predominance of thunder/ice-weak mobs as well, which didn't help matters.

    Elemental resistances/weaknesses could be made a thing in XIV. Transpose could be turned into Elementalshift, so that for example BLM's Fire/Ice/Thunder spells could become Ice/Wind/Water, where Blizzard becomes the high-damage spells, Aero is the low-damage MP-recharging spells, and Water are DoTs. (Astral/Umbral obviously shifts as well.) Another use and you're at Wind/Earth/Fire, six uses and you've made one revolution on the elemental wheel.

    Obviously not fully thought out, but it's enough to see that it could be done.

  12. #52
    PUP Power!
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    4,016
    BG Level
    7
    FFXI Server
    Sylph

    As a BLM, I would love to see variety in spellcasting such as your example above. Fire should not destroy a Living Flame or Ifrit >.> Ancient Magics from FFXI could be a nice solution, requiring you to 'charge' it by using elemental specific spells (i.e. Blizzard III > 'Freeze II', Thunder 3 > 'Shock'). All AM would remain spammable as long as you keep Enchain and the right stance up. To make it more interesting, perhaps you can only use Shock if you have Thunder on the mob. All AM would share the same potency, add a neg effect, and target specific enemy elemental weaknesses they can add in 4.0.

  13. #53
    Can you spare some gil?
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    7,279
    BG Level
    8

    Quote Originally Posted by Damane View Post
    in a perfect world this game would be FFXI HD super polished version, sadly its not :/ (i can live with that)
    If you want FFXI HD go into deep dungeon, get pacified and auto attack something until the effect wears off to use a weapon skill. That is your FFXI HD.

  14. #54
    New Merits
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    206
    BG Level
    4

    The reality is XIV 2.0+ has been a step back in meaningful game-play decisions when compared to 1.0 or even XI. Want to know what gear to use on your character? Easy, whatever has the highest ilvl. Want to know what skills to use? Easy, copy the highest DPS rotation for hundreds of hours or spam AoE if applicable.

    The only time there's anything meaningful going on is the choice when to break your rotation to avoid some insta-death mechanic. The rest of the game is play-by-numbers. The lack of any emergent game-play or dynamic situations really kerbs the re-playability of any of the content and yet at end-game we're expected to do weekly grinds for tomestones. It's not as if you even get to strike up conversation with the people you're trapped in the DF with because you have to deal with the ever so meaningful rotation spam.

    Don't get me wrong, XI and XIV 1.0 both had tons of flaws - but XI was able to provide an environment in which numerous tests of skill and player interaction worthy of memories were had. 1.0 had a combat system that was full of promise.

    2.0 has felt like a FF overlay put on top of a cynically designed grind-fest - complete with a dead, lobby-like over-world. But at least the mouse and UI work.

    Edit: Again, nothing against the artists, musicians, translators - they are masters of their crafts.

  15. #55

    I agree 1.0 system was very promising on paper and what held it back was how it got executed. With all the bugs that we had when it launched it made it unplayable but the core idea if it was executed properly would've made for something special imo.
    I will argue that once Yoshida took over and they came out with 1.23 it was best battle system XIV has seen. We've still seen some bugs and there was lag during Ifrit but I've enjoyed that fight for what it was. I loved the idea of breaking his horns and that was still when skills actually did something. You built your TP and unleashed powerful attacks which to me made the combat way more exciting because you were constantly building up to something. 2.0 is just about keeping the exact same rhythm till the dance is over. Another thing I loved was speed run dungeons that we did and you'd change jobs twice or three times inside the dungeon. I think in Cutters Cry I'd start of as DRg, change to War for the ant boss, and to Blm for Khimira. That's the most fun I had in 14. Crafting mattered back than because like XI you saw visible effects on your damage and since crafted gear wasn't capped.

    All that said at the system even though different from XI it made the game enjoyable for me because I could do exact same things I did in XI. We did whole bunch of events as a Free Company, exped together, talked bullshit and enjoyed our time as a community. 2.0 killed the most important thing for me which was this fair balance between social aspect of the game and the actual gameplay.

  16. #56
    Black Belt
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    5,982
    BG Level
    8

    Quote Originally Posted by haroldsaxon View Post
    I never played FFXI, but how did they deal with Elemental resistances? I personally think it can be a bit lazy, and as a BLM i'd be worried that the class may be completely useless against something that has a high fire resistance.
    That was the beauty of XI and the FF MMOs in general, the fact that you have every job on one character and can switch as needed. I was on BLM for a lot of the time in XI, because most things would melt to a cadre of BLMs, but a handful of mobs were immune or extremely resistant to magic and that's where having other jobs leveled could really shine. Just hop onto another job and you're golden.

    And yes I agree with Aleth that the button mashing is needless. What I think Aleth is trying to say is that the rotation for most jobs in XIV is needlessly complex - the fact that you HAVE to be pressing buttons at all times to be an effective party member, rather than pressing buttons in a more thought-out and timely fashion, is a design flaw. It's the reason I preferred healer over DPS in XIV (despite dps being a more attractive role to me), because there was slightly more wiggle room as far as being able to decide which buttons to push when, rather than sticking to an optimized rote rotation. If you're pretty much going to press the same buttons in the same order throughout the entire fight, the only variance being maybe hitting a LB or the one or two reactionary abilities your job was actually given, you might as well just have a bot cycle through the buttons over and over (and indeed I know that many people do this).

    I'm not saying it was completely different in XI, because by and large the fights in that game were by rote as well, at least if you did them often enough. But at least you had time to chat with your friends, which made all the difference. An MMO that completely nixes your ability to chat with others anytime you're in battle because you need to keep doing the same rotation over and over again as fast as possible is fairly deeply flawed.

  17. #57
    Relic Horn
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    3,286
    BG Level
    7
    FFXIV Character
    Nmtd Natlhom
    FFXIV Server
    Coeurl

    Quote Originally Posted by Silenka View Post
    An MMO that completely nixes your ability to chat with others anytime you're in battle because you need to keep doing the same rotation over and over again as fast as possible is fairly deeply flawed.
    You can say this, but there are a large portion of people who mock XIV for having such a ludicrously slow GCD of two and a half whole seconds. I don't think calling the fast pacing a flaw is entirely fair so much as your personal ideal. For better or worse, the market has spoken and the slower paced methodical MMOs have all but died off and the more action oriented ones are thriving.

  18. #58

    Yeah, I kinda wish the rotation happy MMOs would adopt automated combos you can set to trigger, with the leveling process adding more steps to the combo/variance. So, instead of having to go like 1 2 1 2 3 4 1 1 or whatever over 10 seconds, you could just press 1 and it'd run that as long as you were in range/facing/not disabled. Then you can add the more impactful button presses like a WS, or the situation determining a different combo get employed. This leaves some more freedom to mechanic reaction or furthering the ability to type mid-combat.

    But part of it's just me not taking to voice chat like some do.

  19. #59
    Old Odin
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    6,110
    BG Level
    8
    FFXI Server
    Asura

    Final Fantasy XIV: Stormblood - Early Summer 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Shenrien View Post
    If you want FFXI HD go into deep dungeon, get pacified and auto attack something until the effect wears off to use a weapon skill. That is your FFXI HD.
    oh i am not saying FFXI didnt have its flaw. A mix between both would be nice. Pace of battle that allows for typing and a system that allows out of the box thinking and very unuusal setups. Where strategic job-choices/abilitys/gear-choices can alter the way you handle a fight drasticly. the only strategic choices you have now is where to place the mob and what rotation to use/hold


    Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

  20. #60

    The single worst thing for me about 2.0 is that the combat system to me feels like you have no influence over anything. There is only one way to skin a cat and that's it. You move to specific position or you die and you have to press exact same sequence of buttons every single time exactly same way with same timing. If you're not pressing them fast enough your dps goes to shit and you lose. In 1.23 at least there some degree of freedom to try different class setups and other things. In XI also we fought that fucking Fafnir with so many different combinations and also since mobs had a pool of abilities to use randomly the fights felt slightly different each time. Someone got a new piece of gear for their BLM and showed of their e peen with a huge damage burst. Things were not so monotonous at least for me.

Quick Reply Quick Reply

  • Decrease Size
    Increase Size
  • Remove Text Formatting
  • Insert Link Insert Image Insert Video
  • Wrap [QUOTE] tags around selected text
  • Insert NSFW Tag
  • Insert Spoiler Tag

Similar Threads

  1. Final Fantasy XIV Version Update 1.20 Date 12/14
    By Waraji in forum FFXIV: Official News and Information
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 2011-12-06, 09:25