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  1. #61
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    so many different combinations of the same roles, lol. Wish we had a game like that

    double lol at kings being the example of not being monotonous




    liiike I completely understand why XIV's combat system doesn't appeal to everyone, but lets not pretend an enormous part of XI's appeal wasn't being a stupid 14 year old. Both games' combat gets incredibly tedious after you get a handle on it five minutes into starting a class, one of them just allowed us to type while we did it

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dotsudoku View Post
    so many different combinations of the same roles, lol. Wish we had a game like that

    double lol at kings being the example of not being monotonous




    liiike I completely understand why XIV's combat system doesn't appeal to everyone, but lets not pretend an enormous part of XI's appeal wasn't being a stupid 14 year old. Both games' combat gets incredibly tedious after you get a handle on it five minutes into starting a class, one of them just allowed us to type while we did it
    its not the battle system, more the possibilitys what you can take out of a job and how things can drasticly change in 11 with major gear/subjob selection. GEO for example was very underwhelming until i showed how geo-vex and attunement drasticly change resists for playerdebuffs/magic dmg on players, thus changing alot of battle setups. Or just the lately example of how PUP tanking got viable in not all but some instances with specific gearsets and job points etc.

    Things still get figured out

  3. #63

    Quote Originally Posted by Dotsudoku View Post
    so many different combinations of the same roles, lol. Wish we had a game like that

    double lol at kings being the example of not being monotonous




    liiike I completely understand why XIV's combat system doesn't appeal to everyone, but lets not pretend an enormous part of XI's appeal wasn't being a stupid 14 year old. Both games' combat gets incredibly tedious after you get a handle on it five minutes into starting a class, one of them just allowed us to type while we did it
    I just used Fafnir as an example of a fight. What I mean is I could take 2 tanks, brd, whm, and 2 blms and go kill him, I could take full alliance and go kill him. I could take alliance and kill Ix'drk or I could kill it with 2 rdms. In XIV if I don't take the set 2 tanks, 2 dps, 2 healers I can do whole lots of dick. If I have the proper setup and they don't smash their keys fast enough I have 0 hopes of winning.

  4. #64
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    Yeah you have to be extremely careful with wording when you bring up XI in any positive manner it seems.

    Even in 1.x of FFXIV the only reason people preferred say "THM/BLM" setup is because it was pretty much the setup with the least amount of work needed, say for example CC it made dodging some of the arena traps much easier. Hell most if not all of XIV's fights could be single healed/tanked if they didn't throw in pointless gimmicks/heal checks and tank swap/busters, since ignoring the updated mechanics post HW, a lot of older ex primals and such had a tank swap mechanic or required 2 tanks, but if you do it now sync'd or unsync'd, you can actually get around them fairly easily even sync'd (ramuh still touchy), but they also punish you for being "too good" on some content, e.g pushing ifrit ex too fast will auto wipe you. You were never punished for being efficient in XI in a similar way, you did get punished for tunnelvisoning though.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destinye View Post
    Yeah you have to be extremely careful with wording when you bring up XI in any positive manner it seems.
    No, you just have to take your nostalgia blinders off when you do it. XI's combat system was critically flawed in a lot of ways. It was just flawed differently thank 2.0's combat is flawed.

    You cannot look at all the worthless weapon skills and spells in XI and think "yep, that's good game design." XI never punished you for zerging shit because zerging shit was often the only reliable way to kill anything. Did you ever try not blitzing Dynamis Lord? XI punished you for not zerging. It punished you for trying to stand and actually tank anything. The two ways to kill things in XI were "kite it around a rock" or "find three bards, two RDM/DRKs and a ton of DRKs". Defense was a worthless stat for most of the game's life. You couldn't even see your own Accuracy total.

    2.0's combat is flawed, clearly. But there are (almost) no worthless skills like in XI. Every fight requires different movement as opposed to XI's "kite or zerg". 1.2X's combat was flawed too. MNKs couldn't use their best abilities in half the fights because of the elemental bullshit. PLD was literally barred from almost everything because other classes could set all of GLD's best abilities (why the fuck was Sentinel cross-classable?). Threat management was a pain in the ass. It had some really shitty itemization issues (especially for THM/BLM).

    The tank swap mechanic was a ham-fisted way of forcing two tanks into an encounter so that groups wouldn't shun PLD completely and I'm glad it's gone. Hopefully they balance the tanks (PLD, really) better in 4.0 otherwise the Derplander may as well have just changed back to WAR after Heavesward.

  6. #66
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    Be critical of both games' proclivity for tedium, somehow I'm only hating on one

  7. #67

    saying you liked XI on BG anymore is like saying you're voting for Trump at Hillarys rally

  8. #68
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    Recovering heroin addicts don't want to hear other people talking about how great heroin is.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cichy View Post
    saying you liked XI on BG anymore is like saying you're voting for Trump at Hillarys rally
    meanwhile attempting to be objective is met with.. I don't even know, flash illiteracy?

    >both XIV and XI's combat systems become second nature almost immediately and require very little thought

    >>okay but why do you hate XI so much?

  10. #70
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    yo let's have a XI-praise and XIV-bitching circlejerk on the XIV expansion thread for a whole page and then cry that we have to be very careful when praising XI on BG as soon as a couple posters start disagreeing

    we tumblr now

  11. #71
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    Bring back gearswapping!

  12. #72
    XI was, and will always be, better.
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    But in XI I could use kclub and spam starlight on PLD/SMN for ultimate MP levels to make me best NA pld

    Can't do that in XIV

    Ergo, XI betta

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patriarch View Post
    starlight
    nigga pls, you use Moonlight so your party never runs out of MP and doesn't need Ballad or Refresh like scrubs.

    Spoiler: show
    Partly serious, PLD could definitely use an Ochain right now though (or an Aegis) to define it as the brick wall.

  14. #74
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    Isn't that why PLDs have Hallowed Ground.

    Thank Yoshida for the CDs reset after wipes.

  15. #75
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    I think in terms of immersion.

    When I play PLD and Sheltron and actually block, I feel like a brick wall.


    But when I don't block a multi-attack for example, or just get slapped around and not even block once, I absolutely don't feel like a brick wall.

    A good example is Tera's Lancer (basically a PLD with but a lance) where you do feel extremely tough, but in exchange your output is woeful:



    An ochain in FFXIV can fix it. I've not gotten one in FFXI but when I did cast Reprisal back then (ups block rate) I do feel quite bricky

    edit: but balance in FFXIV and stuff so this will never happen

  16. #76
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    It really comes down to that there are few meaningful options in the game and it permeates the entire design around the game's combat (which over-loads the player-input with button mashing).

    You can't choose to fight in a different way to another player who is using the same job class. You can't, say, focus on a certain sub-set of abilities available to that class and adjust your character to perform better at those skills. It's also ingrained in the itemisation; you can't really choose a noticeably different "build" for your character / job class compared to anyone else's attempt at playing that same class.

    Say you have a melee DPS job - in many games with RPG elements you usually get a choice of how to setup your character.

    eg. Maybe you build all-out for attack speed, maybe you build for reliable, slower, more powerful strikes with a bit of crit... maybe you build just for maximum damage on your powerful, long cool-down deus-ex-machina abilities.

    You just don't get these sorts of options at the moment - current XIV design is very inflexible - the MMO battle-system equivalent of the "long hallway tutorial" level-design people so loathed in FF13.

    I brought up FFXI when giving the elemental wheel hierarchy example but I could just as easily have used the elemental resistances in FFVII or any other FF. The simplification of the game-play for the 2.0 reboot threw away some of the baby with the bath-water - including long standing FF mechanic tropes.

    Don't get me wrong, if I was put in a situation like Yoshida was and was handed a large, complex game to "save" I would also boil things down and simplify it to its core elements and hit all the quality of life things hard (all the UI/UX stuff that 1.0 totally fluffed).

    But as it is, currently, the worst quality of life things about the game are now those self-same simplified combat, item and progression systems. The UI works, the game is beautiful but it's still sitting on this stripped-out no-choice game-play.

    Since the early days of the 2.0 release SE has largely ignored any further mechanical changes to the game (beyond tweaking numbers) and focused on content. Again, it's understandable, but all this time-sink content for basic, yet unnecessarily fiddly, game-play has been... unappealing.

    The reason I brought this up is that the expansion promises adjustments to the battle system which, I hope, suggests the devs have made at least some of these realisations. It was not to bait a XI vs XIV convo.

    Anyway, should the alterations in the update be large enough, a great many friends may return to XIV - a mix of long time fans of the franchise, general online gamers and XI orphans. Most of whom got to 50 after the 2.0 beta, grinded out their darklight gear and played the new endgame content as it released for a while and realised that the devs were "done" with the systems behind the game. The ilvl and ever-raising tier tome-grind approach to endgame also didn't help...

    So here's to the possibility of the fighting system actually being fun to use.

    Edit: In b4


    TLDR: "Aargh"
    Spoiler: show

    Changes to combat system is good because since stripping it out to reboot XIV:
    - Combat has been choiceless, dull and overly-busy on input
    - Itemisation has been choiceless, linear, dull
    - Endgame progression has been grindy, linear, dull


    Not this:
    Spoiler: show


    No matter how true it is

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Stig View Post
    I think in terms of immersion.

    When I play PLD and Sheltron and actually block, I feel like a brick wall.


    But when I don't block a multi-attack for example, or just get slapped around and not even block once, I absolutely don't feel like a brick wall.

    A good example is Tera's Lancer (basically a PLD with but a lance) where you do feel extremely tough, but in exchange your output is woeful:



    An ochain in FFXIV can fix it. I've not gotten one in FFXI but when I did cast Reprisal back then (ups block rate) I do feel quite bricky

    edit: but balance in FFXIV and stuff so this will never happen
    Got any video's of caster play? When you Ochain, could you elaborate on what that is, I never played XI.

    @Aleth

    Of course you can choose to fight in a different way to another player using the same job class. But, it will always be sub optimal, some more than others. You can sort of do the same - say running det on BLM compared to SS. But the lack of gear choice and how its not really good to do that means its worse. So you do get a choice, but no matter how you design things, some things are always going to be different than others. Ultimately, in whatever game you play, there is an optimal class/build/playstyle, and a sub optimal one. Things change based on patches, but there will always be an optimal way of playing.

    Then, when you come down to it, you choose do you want to have different playstyle separated out into classes, or have multiple playstyles on the same class - I honestly don't see the difference - they are just different routes to the same end. The main issue with XIV's version is that due to the way tomes work, its difficult to switch classes all of a sudden - you can, but you end up falling behind.

    I don't consider removing the elemental wheel a simplification of gameplay at all. Please, tell me what was complicated about it? Now it would be nice to have a class that could use a skill to aspect its spells with a certain damage type - but for that to be decent gameplay, you would have to fight bosses that CHANGED their aspect resistances/weakness mid fight. Otherwise, what skill or engaging gameplay is that? Aspect with Thunder pre fight for Levi? Aspect Earth for Ramuh. Wow, big choices.

    I agree with you about the item and progression systems, and the combat is fairly basic, but it also doesn't have needless bloat like that. That said, there have been some significant mechanical changes to the game since release with regards to the combat imo. You've got to play around team based buffs that are duration based - trick attack, The Balance, The Arrow, Hypercharge. Not too complicated, but its a step. I would love to see more combinations between classes.

    I just honestly think you've not played this since release. Perhaps i'm wrong, but the feel of the gameplay now is completely different to that in early levels/just got to 50. You have some good points and I think they could do more with the combat, but it isn't as bad as you say it is and I also disagree with putting in tropes for the sake of putting in tropes when they don't offer anything engaging gameplay wise. Mind you, i'm coming at this not with a perspective as a FF Fan or a FFXI player - just someone that likes playing video games.

  18. #78
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    Pens win! Pens Win!!! PENS WIN!!!!!

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    In XI, Ochain was a shield that got added in with one of the Abyssea expansions (like 8 years into the game's life). It was PLD only and was the same "tier" as a relic weapon/shield would be. Two things made it almost inarguably the best shield in the game. It converted 25% of damage taken into MP on blocks, and it boosted your block rate to effectively 100%. It was basically a permanent ~40% physical damage decrease in most fights and it really helped PLD carve out a niche of its own as a self-sufficient tank. I could basically solo heal myself on Odin with it.

    The way Ochain worked is the way shields should work in XIV, in my opinion. The block rate needs to be globally increased dramatically (and block strength increased in step) and then PLD will actually have the advantage in physical damage mitigation that it deserves (and needs).

  19. #79
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    I'm not really a tank, but I agree. RNG based mitigation really just isn't good imo. Its pretty much why Parry as a stat is trash (that and even if it worked the mitigation isn't good).

  20. #80
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    Unless someone can go make a video right now, I'm having a hard time finding a video of someone using an Ochain 1v1, but that cements why this shield is so great along with Obsidian's comments. Anyone and everyone who goes and makes a video with their Ochain essentially goes and pulls 10~30 mobs and they're animation stuck in a blocking stance. Not only that, with the magic spell Phalanx (temporarily reduces damage by a set amount based on the player's enhancing skill) and some damage reduction gear, along with shield blocks, essentially made PLD THE tank/brick wall. People were proud with their Ochain and feeling like a proper tank for once (after being shunned for so many years).

    It was a massive game changer. Of course, we can't have such an item in FFXIV....

    Still, notice how recently FFXIV removed shield sizes being a thing, it's all basically a kite shield now, not a buckler (high block rate, low damage block) or a tower (low block, high damage block)

    If anything, I'll take an increased block rate and an animation change/bump to show I REALLY blocked it. Give me that feel at least ;__;

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