PC Principal III: Anti-Affection League: Subtitling Intensifies: The Movie, The Thread

[Ksandra]

Except we're not debating opinions, we're debating a definition. I'm giving you non-opinion based reasons why your interpretation is wrong.

No you are giving your opinion on what you want the definition to be, vs. what it actual is.

Your answers are very opinion-based. To say otherwise is deceitful.

[Zetanio]

You're using hyperbole, he's using reason and facts.

Seems legit though.

[Ksandra]

I don't think he was literally for insulting people. I think he was trying to describe the difference or distinction between a word that is a normal word but in certain contexts can be offensive vs. a word who's ONLY use is to be offensive.

And my argument is that either of those can be considered slurs. As, again, "faggot" can be used as a normal word but in certain contexts can be a slur, the same way "retard" can.

[Ksandra]

And my argument is that either of those can be considered slurs. As, again, "faggot" can be used as a normal word but in certain contexts can be a slur, the same way "retard" can.

You're using hyperbole, he's using reason and facts.

Seems legit though.

Explain how this is hyperbolic and not a fact.


[edit] I would argue that he is being hyperbolic by trying to elevate the word "slur" beyond its actual definition to what he wants it to mean. What facts has he given that his definition is some kind of official one? I actually posted a dictionary definition. He has not.

[Gredival]

No you are giving your opinion on what you want the definition to be, vs. what it actual is.

Your answers are very opinion-based. To say otherwise is deceitful.

The fact that your interpretation is over-inclusive and would make "gay," "fatty," and "moron" slurs is just deceitful prejudiced opinion I guess.

[Zetanio]

I get it, you don't care about insulting people with special needs.

Hyberbole

[Tarage]

I wouldn't do that. In my completely scientific study I've found short people are more likely to getting into working out and get all jacked. Funny story I think all but 1 diver we had was super short but each one was so well muscled they kept getting overweight and Obese BMIs lol

Haha you know what? I have a friend who I give shit to for being short(Neither of us care, we just think it's funny bantering) and he IS totally into lifting things and putting them down again.

[Ksandra]

Hyberbole

The fact that your interpretation is over-inclusive and would make "gay," "fatty," and "moron" slurs is just deceitful prejudiced opinion I guess.

But this is not?

[Byrthnoth]

Calling people short doesn't undermine their humanity in the way that calling them a retard does.


It is like how racists use the word "nigger" to clarify the specific type of subhuman that they believe someone is.

Or homophobes specifying the type of subhuman with "faggot", etc.

Or people who think the mentally handicapped are lesser, which I would argue is most of us, using the word "retard." Again, specifying a population they believe to be subhuman.

Obviously calling your friend a retard is meant to be taken in jest, because you don't truly believe them to be mentally handicapped, in the same way that people in the 90s didn't truly believe their friends were gay when they called them faggots or people in the 40s didn't really think their white friends were black when they called them lazy as a nigger. None of those congenial insults were meant to actually classify an associate as a subhuman, which is why they were (at the time) humorous. Even to the target, were intended as reminders to not take on the stereotypical characteristics of the specified subhuman outgroup.

It is the same as the others because it is a historical derogatory word that specifies a group of people as subhuman using a characteristic they can't affect. The difference is that our society is still pretty comfortable being unkind to the mentally handicapped.

[Gredival]

But this is not?

It's not? It's literally the examples I gave for why your definition is poor and over-inclusive.

[Gredival]

Calling people short doesn't undermine their humanity in the way that calling them a retard does..

This is not a point of contention though.

The argument is currently whether the definition of slur as "a derogatory or insulting term applied to particular group of people" is overbroad.

As written that definition makes fatty, gay, moron, etc. all slurs. The only filter is that there is some level of targeting but the nature of that targeting is unrestricted.

[Ksandra]

The fact that your interpretation is over-inclusive and would make "gay," "fatty," and "moron" slurs is just deceitful prejudiced opinion I guess.

The fact is mine is directly a dictionary definition, and yours is from no where.

[Niiro]

The difference is that our society is still pretty comfortable being unkind to the mentally handicapped.

Are not.

We made one president.

[Byrthnoth]

If there was a long history of using the word "fat" in a malicious way to mean "glutinous subhuman," then I would argue that the word "fat" should also not be used unless you mean that you hate fat people. Same thing with moron, gay, etc.

There's a reason people hone in on specific words. It's because words have consensus meanings and usages. Retard is the harshest term for someone who has a mental handicap. It's possible we will some day become so empathetic to that population that we abandon the term moron too. I actually don't use the term moron either, but I'm not sure why. It just doesn't roll off the tongue and I don't really like saying it.

In fact, given the way the US job market is shifting, I wonder if at some point we'll have to come to terms with the fact that a lot more people are not biologically prepared to be successful than we currently classify as mentally handicapped.


Edit: @Niiro touche

[Ksandra]

This is not a point of contention though.

The argument is currently whether the definition of slur as "a derogatory or insulting term applied to particular group of people" is overbroad.

As written that definition makes fatty, gay, moron, etc. all slurs. The only filter is that there is some level of targeting but the nature of that targeting is unrestricted.

1. Why does that matter? And 2. If you are under the impression that we need to add arbitrary extra restrictions to it, why is Byrnth's view of it not a more valid concept than yours?

Calling people short doesn't undermine their humanity in the way that calling them a retard does.


It is like how racists use the word "nigger" to clarify the specific type of subhuman that they believe someone is.

Or homophobes specifying the type of subhuman with "faggot", etc.

Or people who think the mentally handicapped are lesser, which I would argue is most of us, using the word "retard." Again, specifying a population they believe to be subhuman.

Obviously calling your friend a retard is meant to be taken in jest, because you don't truly believe them to be mentally handicapped, in the same way that people in the 90s didn't truly believe their friends were gay when they called them faggots or people in the 40s didn't really think their white friends were black when they called them lazy as a nigger. None of those congenial insults were meant to actually classify an associate as a subhuman, which is why they were (at the time) humorous. They were reminders to not take on the stereotypical characteristics of the subhuman outgroup.

It is the same as the others because it is a historical derogatory word that specifies a group of people as subhuman using a characteristic they can't affect. The difference is that our society is still pretty comfortable being unkind to the mentally handicapped.

Because when I look at the list of slurs, I see them very much falling in line with his interpretation, where as yours is full of holes and feels like a sloppy concept for the sake of not having to look at the breadth of the word.

[dasva]

There's a reason people hone in on specific words. It's because words have consensus meanings and usages. Retard is the harshest term for someone who has a mental handicap. It's possible we will some day become so empathetic to that population that we abandon the term moron too

That's not always the case though. While there is natural evolution within language people do try to push to have it change.

As far as moron we kind of have. It went thru a similar thing retard has in being used as more of a clinical definition then an insult after which it kind of lost it's original usage. And as ones drop out new ones take their places and change. Society will use different arrangement of letters but still say the same thing

[Ksandra]

That's not always the case though. While there is natural evolution within language people do try to push to have it change.

I'm honestly fine with that. All societies try to force social changes in some form or another for various aspects of their culture. And it's rather common for those who are without to push to be on the same level as the rest. It doesn't hurt to have the "norm" people to agree to it in order to gain enough steam for it to happen.

[Byrthnoth]

Yeah, ultimately what matters is the current impression of what the word means and how it is used. If people forget that in the 1800s a moron and a retard were exactly the same, then maybe moron's connotation is less bad now.

It's really about just trying to avoid miscommunicating and accidentally making others feel bad when you talk. I respect people's rights to say whatever they want to say, but I also respect society's rights to censure bad actors.

I stopped saying "retard" about four years ago now because I realized the connotation was much more negative than I thought to someone that mattered to me. If you want to keep saying retard, say it away but keep in mind that someone is probably reading it and thinking about how a loved one will never be able to live independently because society doesn't have a place for them.

[Gredival]

The fact is mine is directly a dictionary definition, and yours is from no where.

And whether or not it's in a dictionary has what to do with the fact it's overinclusive?

Because it's not like there are SCOTUS cases that turn on the Justices deciding which definitions of words to use and have rejected dictionary definitions. It's not like lawmakers and regulators write their own definitions for clarity sake.

[gaira]

let's just come to consensus on a single word that encompasses "not like me" and get everyone to agree to only use that word, reclaiming all the others for normal use.