Meta Mistake - Social Media Is Sucio

[Penthesilea]

There's a private server for that. It's Horizon XI I believe, but does start at CoP.

https://horizonxi.com/

[Yabby]

Yea, when NASA came out, and that shell had more than 10 people there... someone else claiming was almost zero. My server, i think the shell that used it had close to a 95% claim rate on everything they camped. Sucked, but i got most of my shit before that hit the market, and my shell shifted its focus to relics/krakens.

[thetruepandagod]

There's a private server for that. It's Horizon XI I believe, but does start at CoP.

https://horizonxi.com/

ah yes, a shallow imitation that brings none of the things that made xi great. might as well create a lvl 1 account just to sit it in a zone with nice music for all the good this does me

[thetruepandagod]

I WANT PEOPLE SHOWING UP TO OTHERS HOUSES WITH GUNS IN REAL LIFE BECAUSE OF IN GAME DRAMA THAT HAD ZERO IN GAME OUTLET WHATSOEVER, I WANT ZERO SUM COCK BLOCK MONOPOLIES, I WANT THE DAILY CHOICE OF SUCCESS AT FFXI OR REAL LIFE, I WANT COPS BEING CALLED AND PEOPLE BEING RAIDED BECAUSE OF LINKSHELLS SENDING UNDERAGE PICS OF THEIR MEMBERS TO RIVALS TO GET THEM OFF THE GAME CUZ PRISON

[thetruepandagod]

and community, i miss the community.

[Byrthnoth]

A lot about the way FFXI's packet system works and client-side throttling happens has become public knowledge since you guys last played.

Claim bots always had an advantage over humans because they had better information and could use an efficient strategy at machine speed. The client-side and server-side throttling mechanisms made it something of a numbers and distribution game once claim delay was introduced, but that doesn't mean a claim bot wasn't hands down better at it that players. A networked bot could figure out approximately when each user's packet would hit the server and spread claim attempts out across time. If you imagine that a monster spawns at time 0 and becomes claimable between 100 and 1000ms later, you want to evenly cover that space to maximize your odds of getting it, perhaps with some redundancy as the number of users allows. There is a lot of network math to work out, but it isn't hard and not doing the math (playing manually) doesn't somehow get you a more optimal strategy.

[mallister]

We've been down this road before.

[Gredival]

I WANT PEOPLE SHOWING UP TO OTHERS HOUSES WITH GUNS IN REAL LIFE BECAUSE OF IN GAME DRAMA THAT HAD ZERO IN GAME OUTLET WHATSOEVER, I WANT ZERO SUM COCK BLOCK MONOPOLIES, I WANT THE DAILY CHOICE OF SUCCESS AT FFXI OR REAL LIFE, I WANT COPS BEING CALLED AND PEOPLE BEING RAIDED BECAUSE OF LINKSHELLS SENDING UNDERAGE PICS OF THEIR MEMBERS TO RIVALS TO GET THEM OFF THE GAME CUZ PRISON

In your darkest hour, when the demons come, call on me brother and we will fight them together.

[thetruepandagod]

but gred, we are the demons

[Gredival]

Exclusion is not what determines meritocracy; meritocracies ARE exclusionary. The question is how the exclusion works mechanically. My point with botting is that, in the end, anyone could come to Aery, and if they had enough people with sufficient brain cells and attention span, they could claim. But in the vast majority of cases, people who didn't camp HNMs weren't the type of player worthy of that gear. And you would always see every naïve fool that tried to do endgame without a true HNMLS either realize the folly and join an HNMLS or just stop camping and delude themselves as to why Ridill/Adaberk/Heca Cap/Heca Subligar/Dramatica wasn't necessary to be a top player.

Capitalism is not equivalent in this comparison because "fuck you" amounts of money are limited to a very select number of professions, most of which are hard access limited. Plenty of people who SHOULD earn less, DO earn less. The problem is that many people who earn more that shouldn't, just because they inherited advantages of wealth and status.

We generally consider, say, doctors to be amongst the general population's best and brightest. Most doctors will never even sniff the sort of money that a venture capitalist does. Most investment bankers don't either; it's really a super concentrated group at the top of these firms that benefit from surplus labor of the organization. And how did those people at the top get there? Nine times out of ten it's because they were the founders and they had tons of seed money from family wealth, not through clawing their way up from their own successful business ventures.

"Gotta have money to make money" is the true problem with the system, we just ignore the question of how you get that money.

A lot about the way FFXI's packet system works and client-side throttling happens has become public knowledge since you guys last played.

Claim bots always had an advantage over humans because they had better information and could use an efficient strategy at machine speed. The client-side and server-side throttling mechanisms made it something of a numbers and distribution game once claim delay was introduced, but that doesn't mean a claim bot wasn't hands down better at it that players. A networked bot could figure out approximately when each user's packet would hit the server and spread claim attempts out across time. If you imagine that a monster spawns at time 0 and becomes claimable between 100 and 1000ms later, you want to evenly cover that space to maximize your odds of getting it, perhaps with some redundancy as the number of users allows. There is a lot of network math to work out, but it isn't hard and not doing the math (playing manually) doesn't somehow get you a more optimal strategy.

This doesn't contradict anything I said. All linked claiming does is create an even distribution rather than a random cluster. Over time, that means networked users will have an advantage, but there is still the random factor of when the lockout is set and whether or not your distribution was created to have a claimer that is closest to the first available claim time.

Admittedly networked botting has increasing yields (see below), but passing the threshold to realize those yields arguably makes you a super-competitive claiming operation already (see below).

Yea, when NASA came out, and that shell had more than 10 people there... someone else claiming was almost zero. My server, i think the shell that used it had close to a 95% claim rate on everything they camped. Sucked, but i got most of my shit before that hit the market, and my shell shifted its focus to relics/krakens.

The main advantage of botting is that it became more efficient exponential to how many members use it. Random distribution among ten users is not meaningfully worse than random distribution ten manual claimers. That becomes much less the case among 36 botters. So yes, NASA did confer advantages to the NASA shells because the whole NASA tactic was to move somewhere the license was for sale and then recruit everyone under the sun. But NASA itself was somewhat of a red herring. Having two alliances, in and of itself, was a massive advantage that would have given them higher claim rates even without NASA. Especially once you consider NASA gave no more of an advantage than Wizbot's linked claiming.

[Andalusian girls]

but gred, we are the demons

slaneesh khorne nurgle or tzeentch

[Gredival]

slaneesh khorne nurgle or tzeentch

I kinda think we are Larfleeze. Amassing Ridills for people who can't use them over the peasants who won't step into the Aery.

[thetruepandagod]

slaneesh khorne nurgle or tzeentch

*adds another 4 wh40k tabs to the pile*


think it's gotta be slanesh tho

[Spicyryan]

No, because the EXTENT OF THE IMPACT is fully relevant. Like I asserted with respect to the "real world isn't a meritocracy" argument, inherited wealth is the problem precisely because it accounts for the vast majority of the biggest deviations from meritocracy.

That is not true with XI and botting. Post-lockout, the only thing botting did was to evenly distribute large groups of claimers to improve claim efficiency. That was far from a dominant advantage. You could succeed without botting. I am proof of that. I had one of the highest claim rates in iZerg despite refusing to bot. Collectively over my experience in FFXI HNMLS through four shells and three servers, there was never a situation where the non-botters were worse than 45% of the entire shell's claim rate.

The only times I have felt that botting was oppressive is when NASA shells would come in, recruit two full alliances, and THEN people would stop showing up because they thought it was pointless because "They have NASA."

No it wasn't NASA -- NASA just automated Wizbot's linked camping feature. It was the sheer numerical advantage of having two goddamn alliances. As long as people prioritized camping Kings, or rather the shell leader prioritized it, NASA wasn't shit. Even if you didn't use Wizbot, it wasn't shit. The was the difference between iZerg/Sylph and TribeFTW/Asura was that Panda kept forcing everyone to do Kings until well after Ito put XI into the grave. No one on Asura who got theirs gave a shit about fighting with the NASA shell (besides Soup because he still needed the D. Ring)

So, look, I know you put work into that. So, I don't want to simply ignore that, but at the same time debating nonsense about XI being a meritocracy. With clear bias in favor of whatever rosey experience you think you had which defines your norm. Well, good for you, but I disagree with your perception, and ultimately such a conversation is fruitless. Not only is that point in time gone and unable to return, but nothing come of focus on it.

We do both however agree on inherited wealth. Which is funny because I feel that I take it to the natural conclusion of banning inheritance completely. However, based on everything I have seen you say. I don't believe it is very likely you reach the same path.

[Zealot]

There were some pretty shitty players on Fairy in the day with fabulous gear.

Sent from my SM-N981U using Tapatalk

[Spicyryan]

There were some pretty shitty players on Fairy in the day with fabulous gear.

Sent from my SM-N981U using Tapatalk

Surprise surprise. Most players with good gear are shitty today too. At least now they tend to stay rank 6 so they are even easier to spot.

Invited an ML50 GEO to a V25 yesterday which instantly had me skeptical that this tool was a bot/Merc buyer as almost no one legitimately has that on their own yet. Their idle set also screamed "i copied a set from a bad guide".
I figured they just have to stand there and do two bubbles, surely they can follow a single sentence of instructions.

Wrong.









..


Wrong.

[Zealot]

Well mostly it was because the guys in Forsaken or NotED had reasonably good leaders with shitty members, but showing up enough would eventually land you Fafnir gear.

TG was the exception, every one of was totally decked out and also ruled.

[Zealot]

I also have no idea what those abbreviations in your last post mean. V25 is some sort of battlefield I'm guessing?

[Gredival]

So, look, I know you put work into that. So, I don't want to simply ignore that, but at the same time debating nonsense about XI being a meritocracy. With clear bias in favor of whatever rosey experience you think you had which defines your norm. Well, good for you, but I disagree with your perception, and ultimately such a conversation is fruitless. Not only is that point in time gone and unable to return, but nothing come of focus on it.

And you are biased against it because the system excluded you until Abyssea.

I think everyone else will evaluate that as a positive for 75 cap.

We do both however agree on inherited wealth. Which is funny because I feel that I take it to the natural conclusion of banning inheritance completely. However, based on everything I have seen you say. I don't believe it is very likely you reach the same path.

I do actually. I'm not sure how this could practically be accomplished. I also don't think it solves completely, given that in life people would enjoy the freedom to be able to provide for one's family, including "trivial" things such as paying for elite education and gifting of items that would be major expenses for others (cars, homes, etc.) up to providing seed funding or nepotistic high-ranking positions in companies.

But I think the most important thing for a meritocracy is a neutral starting line.

[Gredival]

Well mostly it was because the guys in Forsaken or NotED had reasonably good leaders with shitty members, but showing up enough would eventually land you Fafnir gear.

I mean 75 cap was a mix of both effort and skill, and I think we can all agree that both things have a place in MMOs. For Kings, showing up to camp every day was the effort and being able to kill the mob was skill.

Of course skill became less of an issue for Kings specifically as the game scaled past RoZ, but there were still plenty of instances even post-ToAU where nobodies claimed a stray Fafnir and raged it.

The main problem with post-RoZ scaling (and how most bad people got good gear) was that it built redundancy into the fights. By the end, the Kings were not fights such that you failed based on your weakest link (unless someone was stupid enough to flail the alliance) because tanks and healers were just so much more efficient at the end. So good shells ended up recruiting people that were substandard; when there is no penalty to having weak links, it is always worth having the extra bodies to claim.