Meta Mistake - Social Media Is Sucio

[Athas]

the Western World is definitely the worst except for all the others

I guess this is the part where someone quotes that thing that always get misattributed to Churchill, but that guy was worse then Stalin.

[Gredival]

No offense Gred but you already had someone who solves optimization problems for a living and has unfortunately extreme subject matter expertise with FFXI explain to you how it works.

But you didn't. Like this isn't me refusing to understand or not understanding; there is no set of commonly accepted definitions for those words wherein what you did counts as an explanation.

You gave one specific instance (two manual claimers vs. two botters) then you asserted in this instance they win at 60-40:

A simple strategy for the theoretical bot in that case is just to put one sample right between Xmin and Xmax and the other at Xmax, which beats manual about 60% of the time.

You might be right; I honestly don't know. But you definitely did not "explain" how you arrived at the 60-40 split in a way that I could like process the math.

The rest of your post were explanations of factors that, as far as I can tell, argue that botting's advantages are largely mitigated due to networking interference and other factors (which supports my assertion that botting was not a "significant" advantage"). You touch on the end that the main advantage is the ability to claim without needing to see the mob spawn, but that contradicts my experience (and others) that you could manually claim without load in the right situation.

[Gredival]

Also everytime Gred talks about kings I'm glad I spent my time in game making money to buy shit from shells rather then spending over a third of every day twilding my thumbs at camps.

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Third? Hah.

[Byrthnoth]

Oh, I didn't bother solving it. I just simulated a comparison of the strategies.

There are only 3 random numbers per sample and reverse price is right rules is easy to code, so I think it was 3 lines or something

[Zealot]

Would have to have the foggiest understanding of politics beyond a middle school level of "US good, them bad" and US state media. Which is a put down because it is just obnoxious to read: "Yeah, I don't know shit, so like, what you said doesn't matter, catch me up everything so I can disagree already."



How unsurprising.



Yeah, but it is his way or the highway. As an incredibly stubborn person, even I find this "XI was perfect, math says so" to be sociopathically over the top.

Lol

Lmao

Yeah China wasn't the most powerful nation on Earth for hundreds of years before the U.S was even a country, and had no history of atrocious human rights behavior, oppression of minorities, slave trafficking, foreign interference, and genocide before Britian got involved. As if Russia's beginning as a united country 500 years ago wasn't marked by butchery of its own people and shortsighted economic wastefulness, a trend which has continued unabated through the centuries.

You're such an uneducated pleb, with a shockingly America-centric view of history considering your supposed distaste for the country. But you don't actually care about these other nations enough to learn about them or allow them their own agency, everything has to be about America.

And if you want to talk about the Middle East or South America, absolutely you would have solid ground to stand on? But Russia? China? Victims of the U.S.? Come the fuck on, junior.

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[Zealot]

And honestly most of the stuff you want to blame on the U.S. is Britain's fault anyway.

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[Andalusian girls]

we learned it from watching you dad

[Gredival]

Lol

Lmao

Yeah China wasn't the most powerful nation on Earth for hundreds of years before the U.S was even a country, and had no history of atrocious human rights behavior, oppression of minorities, slave trafficking, foreign interference, and genocide before Britian got involved. As if Russia's beginning as a united country 500 years ago wasn't marked by butchery of its own people and shortsighted economic wastefulness, a trend which has continued unabated through the centuries.

You're such an uneducated pleb, with a shockingly America-centric view of history considering your supposed distaste for the country. But you don't actually care about these other nations enough to learn about them or allow them their own agency, everything has to be about America.

And if you want to talk about the Middle East or South America, absolutely you would have solid ground to stand on? But Russia? China? Victims of the U.S.? Come the fuck on, junior.

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Spicy cannot comprehend that America (or even the white man as a whole) is not exceptional in his violence, only the most recent.

[Zealot]

Even the U.S. is Britain's fault!

[Andalusian girls]

Britains all the way down

[NynJa]

Is Spicy gonna thank based Elon for letting Tate back on Twitter? None if this happens without Elon.

[Andalusian girls]

you have to respect the Germans as they were the last European nation to unify and their immediate thought was, hey what if we plunge all of earth into war two times, but truly no state in the modern era can match Britain in the consistent propagation of human misery

[Gredival]

you have to respect the Germans as they were the last European nation to unify and their immediate thought was, hey what if we plunge all of earth into war two times, but truly no state in the modern era can match Britain in the consistent propagation of human misery

But why limit this to the modern era? European colonialism only began with seafaring post-Renaissance. The white man is only noteworthy in his violence because his reign at the top coincides with greater reach with globalization and capitalism.

If we adjust for population growth and look at percentage of global population affected rather than just number of people affected, the white man's violence pales in comparison to the Asian.

China was conquering neighboring countries like Vietnam and Korea since 200 BC. Genghis Khan nearly took over Europe centuries before European seafaring colonialism was a pipedream.

[Andalusian girls]

because go fuck yaself that's why

[Andalusian girls]

[Uzor]

Why won’t anyone think of the vikings? We were also atrocious! Pillaging, raping and taking slaves wherever we go. We even put the Britsh in their place!

[thetruepandagod]

Why won’t anyone think of the vikings? We were also atrocious! Pillaging, raping and taking slaves wherever we go. We even put the Britsh in their place!

the best of you became french and i don't even know what to say at that. the rest died to the english/integrated sexually or stayed home

[Ratatapa]

Not sure I understand the Andrew Tate thing

He was arrested/interogated in April I think? then released?

Why would they need to confirm he was in Romania then?

[Byrthnoth]

To give a longer explanation of the earlier tangent...

Our hypothesized legacy king spawning method was:
1) SE makes a random draw that chooses which "window" the monster will spawn in
2) When the monster spawns, they make another random draw to determine the claim delay (x) on the fixed interval [Xmin, Xmax].
2a) If you claim before the claim delay, your action fails.
2b) If you claim after the claim delay, your action is successful.
3) The first person who acts on the monster (their action chunk reaches the server and is successful) gets claim.

If we take the time that the monster spawns to be time 0 and the [Xmin,Xmax] range of possible claim delays to also be known (because you're a bot maker and it wouldn't take that long to figure out) then we basically have reverse-"Price is Right" rules where you want to be as close as possible without going under. So if you were placing two points on the time line, you would want to place one at halfway between Xmin and Xmax and one at Xmax.

Spoiler: show

It is of course possible that SE is not sampling from a uniform distribution, but the bot maker has the second-best information about that distribution. Technically the most favorable setup for normal players would be to sample from a distribution that matches the distribution of manual claim attempts (frequency match), but uniform isn't too bad for them compared to, like, "claim delay is either 100, 200, or 300ms." Even if they actually frequency matched the distribution of manual claim attempts, the bot maker also can collect that information and do the same, which returns the problem to being as if all three were doing draws of the uniform distribution.

It's simplest to just start by assuming it's a uniform distribution, and the most likely alternative is that it's something discrete that's even less favorable to normal players.

In addition to the above, the system is noisy. That is going to interfere with anyone's ability to implement a precise strategy, which will hurt the side that's actually running a precise strategy (the bot) while not really hurting the manual users. Here is a longer Julia script (no packages required) if you want to play with the parameters yourself: https://gist.github.com/Byrth/bcbdb4...a050fb03f0104b

You will see improvement in terms of win rate as you get more bot users (58% in a 2v2, 63% in a 30v30 no jitter), but the increase is not dramatic and at higher attendance the strategy is more strongly impacted by jitter (almost back to 50/50 in a 30v30 with 20% jitter).

The thing that really improves as you get more players is your information about the spawn. This is true in two ways:
1. FFXI does not always send all chunks to all players. If the outgoing packet is at max size, it prioritizes and excludes some chunks. You may literally not get a spawn chunk for an HNM. However, if you have 30 people networked at camp then some of you are going to get the spawn chunk and the bot can tell the others, who can all fire abilities on time anyway. Thus, if you have 30 networked botters vs. 120 other players, it's probably actually more like 30 networked botters vs. the 20 other players that saw the monster spawn.
2. The more people you have, the more precisely you're going to be able to define time 0 and thus 0+Xmin and 0+Xmax. FFXI only sends UDP packets every ~400ms, so there are substantial potential gaps with only 1 or 2 players.

[Milkster]

In almost 2023 how is discussion about XI happening across multiple sections. I think some of y'all need to accept you're in your 40s and let that game go. Or die. Idk just find something new.