PC Principal V: What The Fuck Am I Reading

[Athas]

I think a lot of people would prefer a pet to a pharmaceutical.

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[Ksandra]

It's clear some regulation needs to happen due to the "emotional support animal" craze.

I wish the law on what you can ask could remain as is, but I think they now need a license card that you can show to verify it's a legit service animal, and allow stores to reject those without a card.

[archibaldcrane]

Had a prospective tenant for my rental house circumvent my "no pets" policy by showing her registered emotional support animal documentation.

Reading the laws in California, there was nothing I could do to stop this. Fortunately she dropped out of consideration.

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[Zetanio]

I think a lot of people would prefer a pet to a pharmaceutical.

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I don't fucking care. Pay for a seat for your fucking pet or put them underneath where they are supposed to be.

[Greatguardian]

Right now, the law doesn't require stores to allow ESAs, even with a doctor's note. It doesn't ban them either.

The repercussions a business faces when asking someone with an ESA to leave aren't legal ones. It's all just social media pressure.

[Ksandra]

Right now, the law doesn't require stores to allow ESAs, even with a doctor's note. It doesn't ban them either.

The repercussions a business faces when asking someone with an ESA to leave aren't legal ones. It's all just social media pressure.

The problem is you are limited in what you can ask in the first place to even see if it's a legit animal or not.

[BerenTebogo]

Part of the problem with putting pets underneath is that there are too many incidences of just blatant misconduct and negligence resulting in injury or death.

I don't have a pet that needs to travel right now but you bet your ass that if there was a case where I couldn't get a seat for them, for whatever reason, I would ESA them so fucking fast your head would spin. Underneath is NOT an option. It's not worth the risk, especially given how attached people are to their pets (some, not all). In many cases it'd literally be asking someone to put their child in the cargo hold.

There is zero wiggle room for me on this. I know it's highly abused and if you are a bad actor and your "ESA" dog is sitting there barking at people or snapping at other dogs you should be escorted out of the airport and your pet banned. Be better at training your animal. But for well-behaved animals? Either the regulations on how they are handled and the penalties for the airlines for negligence should be ramped up crazily or fuck off about complaining about it.

[Zetanio]

Animal deaths on flights are still relatively rare. According to DoT statistics, 26 animals died while being transported on planes in 2016, a rate of 0.5 per 10,000 animals transported. A third of those deaths occurred on United Airlines – nine animals (2.11 deaths or injuries per 10,000), and another 14 were injured. While United Airlines had the highest number of animal deaths, one airline, Hawaiian, had a higher incident rate (3.99 per 10,000). But since Hawaiian transports fewer pets than United, the raw number of deaths was three.

.5 per 10,000 animals. Let me roll my fucking eyes harder.

[BerenTebogo]

United is actually specifically the airline I have in mind so yes, distributed over all airlines it isn't as much of a problem, but if there isn't regulation and United can get away with it you can roll your eyes all you want and I'll be bringing any dog I eventually get on as an ESA in your seat.

Also the disparity between injuries to passengers and injuries to pets is gigantic:

"To70 estimated that the fatal accident rate for large commercial passenger flights is 0.06 per million flights, or one fatal accident for every 16 million flights." Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...-idUSKBN1EQ17L

Whether or not you personally value an animal on the same level as a person is pretty irrelevant as far as I'm concerned because enough do to warrant the mass ESAing and the double standard is ridiculous.

[Athas]

.5 per 10,000 animals. Let me roll my fucking eyes harder.

I think this is a situation where the poisoned skittles analogy is more apropos.

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[BerenTebogo]

Hell just having the same weight limit that you have on kids is fine. What is it, like 30-40lbs or lower and they can share a seat and larger you need to buy a ticket? That's perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned. There's really no other middle ground on this argument for me because I am steadfastly one of those people who would lobby for crating kids for the same reason people want to crate dogs for planes. They shit everywhere, they're loud, usually poorly trained, and generally annoying.

[Ksandra]

Part of the problem with putting pets underneath is that there are too many incidences of just blatant misconduct and negligence resulting in injury or death.

I don't have a pet that needs to travel right now but you bet your ass that if there was a case where I couldn't get a seat for them, for whatever reason, I would ESA them so fucking fast your head would spin. Underneath is NOT an option. It's not worth the risk, especially given how attached people are to their pets (some, not all). In many cases it'd literally be asking someone to put their child in the cargo hold.

There is zero wiggle room for me on this. I know it's highly abused and if you are a bad actor and your "ESA" dog is sitting there barking at people or snapping at other dogs you should be escorted out of the airport and your pet banned. Be better at training your animal. But for well-behaved animals? Either the regulations on how they are handled and the penalties for the airlines for negligence should be ramped up crazily or fuck off about complaining about it.

I totally understand that. I also understand that people could actually die from having your pet on the flight. And there is no official specific training and/or licensing required for ESA.

[Ksandra]

Hell just having the same weight limit that you have on kids is fine. What is it, like 30-40lbs or lower and they can share a seat and larger you need to buy a ticket? That's perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned. There's really no other middle ground on this argument for me because I am steadfastly one of those people who would lobby for crating kids for the same reason people want to crate dogs for planes. They shit everywhere, they're loud, usually poorly trained, and generally annoying.

People want to crate dogs because they could bite and kill someone due to allergies.

[BerenTebogo]

I totally understand that. I also understand that people could actually die from having your pet on the flight. And there is no official specific training and/or licensing required for ESA.

This is something that should be addressed, yes, but I think it needs to come hand-in-hand with stricter regulations on the airlines in general. What are the figures on people dying due to pets on an airplane? Is it actually greater per unit than dying due to people killing each other ON planes? Both are going to be incredibly smaller numbers than 0.5 in 10,000 though.

Legislation that passes vs. legislation that never comes up is generally fueled by emotion. Did peanut butter get blanket banned on airplanes or was it just considered? I'm pretty sure the event rate for injuries due to peanut allergies were statistically insignificant.

[BerenTebogo]

People want to crate dogs because they could bite and kill someone due to allergies.

Strictly speaking, so could children.

See above question about event rate per unit for this. I'm not in a place where I can easily get these statistics but I think they're both on the order of insignificant and if I'm wrong I'm wrong.

I was able to quickly grab this https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27941573 and tbh you should probably be for crating children as it looks like they'd be better off.

"3 However, we believe
this to be an underestimation, considering that we screened
114 222 such cases during a 5-year period for a projected annual
occurrence of approximately 65 000 in-flight medical events cases
worldwide. By extrapolating our data, we estimate that approximately
7000 pediatric in-flight medical events and nearly 250 pediatric
in-flight injuries occur every year."

[Ksandra]

Strictly speaking, so could children.

See above question about event rate per unit for this. I'm not in a place where I can easily get these statistics but I think they're both on the order of insignificant and if I'm wrong I'm wrong.

I was able to quickly grab this https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27941573 and tbh you should probably be for crating children as it looks like they'd be better off.

"3 However, we believe
this to be an underestimation, considering that we screened
114 222 such cases during a 5-year period for a projected annual
occurrence of approximately 65 000 in-flight medical events cases
worldwide. By extrapolating our data, we estimate that approximately
7000 pediatric in-flight medical events and nearly 250 pediatric
in-flight injuries occur every year."

I am not sure why this state is relevant to the discussion. Were those cases specifically due to being in a seat?

[Ksandra]

What are the figures on people dying due to pets on an airplane? Is it actually greater per unit than dying due to people killing each other ON planes? Both are going to be incredibly smaller numbers than 0.5 in 10,000 though.

Well, that number isn't an accurate representation since pets usually aren't in the cabin to begin with. That number would rise if we just full on let them as you are suggesting.

Legislation that passes vs. legislation that never comes up is generally fueled by emotion. Did peanut butter get blanket banned on airplanes or was it just considered? I'm pretty sure the event rate for injuries due to peanut allergies were statistically insignificant.

I don't think peanut butter being not on planes was a legislation. Was it?

[Zetanio]

We're also talking about humans and animals.

I love dogs but they should fly underneath the plane unless they are an approved service dog. Same goes for every store in America as well as Amtrak.

Cats can fly outside the plane as far as I'm concerned.

[BerenTebogo]

I am not sure why this state is relevant to the discussion. Were those cases specifically due to being in a seat?

https://sci-hub.tw/https://www.ncbi....ubmed/27941573

Here is non-paywall. It is a reasonable summation of the results to say that the injuries at large were due to them not being physically restrained 100% of the time, i.e. being crated. It is too cumbersome to quote the tables and stuff here but you should have access to that paper through the sci-hub link and one of the topics specifically addressed is the lack of formal harness (or other) restraints being a significant factor. There are statistics for in-lap as well as seated.

The paper is actually INCREDIBLY relevant to this discussion.

[Dotsudoku]

Ed just smuggle Chippy in your bag