PC Principal V: What The Fuck Am I Reading

[Andalusian girls]

i don't even like babies tbh, i'd have a much more difficult time killing puppy Hitler

[Karbuncle]

For context - The being presented argument was "Pro Choicers sometimes argue that abortion lowers crime rates. Its immoral to kill children because of what they might become in the future" (which is what the ~20 second sound bite I type out below is from), and to this topic Ben Shapiro said:

"The argument I guess here is would you kill baby Hitler, and the truth is no Pro Life person on earth would kill Baby Hitler, because Baby Hitler wasn't Hitler, Adult Hitler was Hitler. Baby Hitler was a baby, presumably what you want to do with Baby Hitler is to take Baby Hitler from Baby Hitlers house and into a better house where he would presumably not grow up to be Hitler"

So yah. This has apparently been making rounds on Twitter and got "#BabyHitler" being popular or whatever the fuck its called on twitter Trending was the word I was looking for.

i don't even like babies tbh, i'd have a much more difficult time killing puppy Hitler

It almost hurts how true this is. I mean in any scenario I don't think I'm even capable of murder to begin with but definitely not Baby or Puppy

[Gredival]

I'm a desert-adjusted consequentialist, so to me there is no absolutely no coherent way of evaluating acts beyond weighing the consequences. Murder, torture, rape -- nothing is beyond the pale if you put a good enough consequence on the other side.

The only problem with the baby Hitler hypo is that, for a person living in the 1940s, it's an easy choice. But for us with the benefit of a few more decades, there are more consequences to weigh and historical implications to disentangle.

[Karbuncle]

Yah, its a tough little thought experiment. After my reflection on the matter, I'm of the mind that it doesn't matter who Baby Hitler grows up to be, I do believe i wouldn't kill a baby because it could have positive consequences or some greater good behind it. morally murdering a baby because he grows up to be bad just doesn't jive with me, even if he grows up to be really bad.

[Gredival]

You're aren't murdering a baby because he grows up to be bad. You are murdering a baby to stop WW2 and the Holocaust from ever happening. Divorce whether the baby deserves it from the equation completely. The only thing that matters are consequences. This is a first year philosophy trolley problem on steroids.

[mallister]

stop fucking with timelines. it never turns out well.

[Gredival]

stop fucking with timelines. it never turns out well.

[Karbuncle]

You're aren't murdering a baby because he grows up to be bad. You are murdering a baby to stop WW2 and the Holocaust from ever happening. Divorce whether the baby deserves it from the equation completely. The only thing that matters are consequences. This is a first year philosophy trolley problem on steroids.

Consider it divorced, wouldn't kill the baby.

Philosophy is lovely though, hypothetically killing Baby Hitler could also solve absolutely nothing, what if someone were to simply take his place? Its not like Germany during that time wasn't a powder Keg. Would you still kill it knowing theres a chance it would fix nothing and theres no guarantee his death would prevent either of these events?

The Trolley problem was the one I couldn't think the name of, pull the switch to save 5 lifes and kill 1, or remain a bystander and let it takes its intended course... You're right that its that question on steroids.

[Gredival]

And this is how Stein and Bernie voters gave us Trump.

[Karbuncle]

I can't even respond to that because I have no clue even vaguely what you're implying.

[Gredival]

The inability to do something impure, like voting for Hillary or killing baby Hitler, results in letting something bad come to pass, like Trump's election or WW2 and the Holocaust.

[Karbuncle]

I didn't vote Trump though. Anyway, thanks for the look inside your mind and moral compass for a bit, I'm going to jump out of this plane if you don't mind.

[Gredival]

I didn't say you did, I'm just giving an example for why deontological frameworks are stupid with a very recent example that is easily relatable.

[Karbuncle]

Its not entirely shocking you don't subscribe to Deontology. I can respect a cold, logical, "Ends justify the means" kind of guy. Though honestly for someone who appears versed in philosophy its pretty bewildering you'd go straight for the "Stupid" label on Deontology. Strong mind, strong opinions I guess!

[Gredival]

The boat standoff scene on the Dark Knight would have been over extremely fast if I was on that boat.

[Karbuncle]

Remind me never to get into a hypothetical moral dilemma with you

[Psion]

i mean if you have the ability to go back in time and kill baby hitler, why not just bring a recording of history involving Hitler and explain to his parents what they need to do to avoid that shitty timeline? maybe bring enough currency or something to help hitler get to his art class. why not try calling the damn train station on your cellphone, because everyone has one these days, and get ahold of the conductor to stop the train?

people are always obsessed with the trolley problem. you have shitty option A, and shitty option B. both are shit. stop trying to pick one. try and find a better solution C where no one dies. you may fail, but guess what? if you failed, you wind up with a shitty option A anyways, so why not fucking try for C? you have nothing to lose. in the train situation, i guess that means you can just flip the switch real quick to whichever you feel is better and then immediately try for C.

people who change the world for the better don't stick with A or B. they may choose one as a backup plan, but they try for option C.

[Karbuncle]

i mean if you have the ability to go back in time and kill baby hitler, why not just bring a recording of history involving Hitler and explain to his parents what they need to do to avoid that shitty timeline? maybe bring enough currency or something to help hitler get to his art class. why not try calling the damn train station on your cellphone, because everyone has one these days, and get ahold of the conductor to stop the train?

people are always obsessed with the trolley problem. you have shitty option A, and shitty option B. both are shit. stop trying to pick one. try and find a better solution C where no one dies. you may fail, but guess what? if you failed, you wind up with a shitty option A anyways, so why not fucking try for C? you have nothing to lose. in the train situation, i guess that means you can just flip the switch real quick to whichever you feel is better and then immediately try for C.

people who change the world for the better don't stick with A or B. they may choose one as a backup plan, but they try for option C.

I don't think thats in the spirit of these philosophical choices but I do agree with you. For example the original reason for this question, Shapiro did pick "Option C" in that case, he said Take the Baby from the environment that turned him into Hitler and make sure he doesn't grow up to be Hitler.

[Andalusian girls]

Its not entirely shocking you don't subscribe to Deontology. I can respect a cold, logical, "Ends justify the means" kind of guy. Though honestly for someone who appears versed in philosophy its pretty bewildering you'd go straight for the "Stupid" label on Deontology.

like all true utilitarians Gred dismisses as foolish, irrational, and immoral any quaint deontological notion that those who readily justify the murder of children for the greater good have done far more harm in human history than those that must think twice about it

[Ksandra]

It doesn't matter anyway. If someone was to go back in time to kill baby hitler, then we wouldn't be having this convo as hitler (as we know it) wouldn't exist.

Since he existed, then no time traveler fixed it. If we are going the mutli-verse route, we have no way of knowing if anyone ever did it anyway as our timeline doesn't reflect it.