Thanks Day, very cool!

[Anoat]

she won an Academy Award tho

Anyone who takes it from behind from Billy Bob Thornton on film willingly deserves some kind of recognition

[Andalusian girls]

There were definitely limitations to Cap playing in a shared universe, sure (especially one where Disney wants to be sure that viewers feel like they can drop into the movies any time without previous context).

But I mean the "consequences" of the Nolan Trilogy are what... Rachel and Harvey (who is pretty much only there as a metaphoric symbol for a legitimate Gotham that doesn't need Batman)? Rachel gets replaced by Anne Hathaway and the series concludes with Gotham being good enough not to need the false idol of Harvey and instead recognizing the hero Batman always was.

Also arguably the loss of SHIELD and the emergence of the Avengers as their own entity fuels the conflict that under-girds Civil War.



That's why I said the antagonists of both films were the extreme opposite ends of the "chaos/order" spectrum. Joker is extreme chaos. Hydra is extreme order. They are both cognizant of that duality. The Joker's speech to Harvey about schemers, and how he is just there to show them that their schemes don't work ("Inject a little anarchy into the system.") Hydra premises itself as the only alternative to chaos ("It's the next step Nick. Are you brave enough to take it?" / "If you could stop them with a press of a button, wouldn't you do it?")



I disagree. I think the protagonists fill this role in the movie, and in both they are similarly are cognizant that the conflicts are about more than themselves. Batman understands that despite the two ships don't blowing each other up ("This city just showed you that it's full of good") that the Joker is right that Harvey's fall has symbolic meaning; that's precisely why he has to be the villain that killed Dent and Ramirez. Cap understands the world isn't black and white, but is still able to see a clear distinction that modern police states have lost ("Yeah we compromised, sometimes in ways that didn't make us sleep so well at night. But we did it so people could be free. This isn't freedom. This is fear.") He evolves from just wanting to leave SHIELD to deciding to tear it down as opposed to just stopping Hydra.



I don't think you can laud TDK as the pinnacle because it had "stakes" while simultaneously forgiving Logan for bad plot.

i don't think you understood my post

[Andalusian girls]

ya'll spend far too much time thinking and talking about superhero mumbo jumbo. shits written for kids yo

the contraction of yall is between the y and the all it's ya all not yaa ll

[Krandor]

Anyone who takes it from behind from Billy Bob Thornton on film willingly deserves some kind of recognition

I don't remember Lauren Graham winning anything for Bad Santa.

[Milkster]

ya'll spend far too much time thinking and talking about superhero mumbo jumbo. shits written for kids yo

But it's not and hasn't been for decades.

[Rhyis.]

the contraction of yall is between the y and the all it's ya all not yaa ll

ill place the shit where and when i like

[Andalusian girls]

just tryna educate yal'l

[Rhyis.]

this will not stand

[Zealot]

Also I have many thoughts on your TDK take but I want to talk about the Punisher for a second before I get too into it.

I enjoy the Punisher so much specifically because the best visions of the character adhere to the expectations I have for heroes. Marvel has been trying for 60 years to get people to accept the simple premise that every day people, put in an extraordinary situation, can be heroic, and you don't need to be Superman or Wonder Woman to be a hero. Their greatest models all follow a simple moral code of -no killing- and most of them the even more nuanced -no letting someone die-. Spider-Man offers the most extreme example, wherein the only time anyone ever died by his hand it was literally a woman with a death wish running into his hand without him knowing, and Captain America a more realistic approach wherein he makes every attempt to find a solution that doesn't involve killing, but when it comes down to the person trying to kill people or the people about to be killed and no other options exist, he's a soldier first. When it's all said and done, these people ultimately find some sort of reward for their actions, even though they weren't seeking it out. The villain is put aside. People around them are inspired to do better. Someone's life is saved. A lot of the time a situation that was seemingly unconnected to their acts resolves in a way beneficial to them because of something they couldn't have foreseen when they decided to go out and do the right thing. That's the Marvel message, just be a good person, man, and if everyone is just a good person stuff will turn out a lot better for everyone involved, and one way to BE that better person is not let the people being decidedly NOT better drag you down to their level.

And then there's the Punisher, who just shoots everyone to death.

But when you really look at the character's history, and his motivation, and the resolution of almost all his plots along with how all the truly great Punisher stories work out, he proves the point Marvel is trying to make. Here's a dude who solves all his problems through violence, and it just begets more violence. Frank is never happy, he's never done, he will never resolve his trauma. He long ago killed the people who killed his family, and killed the people who hired them, and killed the people who hired THEM. But he's an empty person. All he has is this fight and it's never over, he never gets a respite, or a moment of personal joy, and anyone who's ever gotten close to him in his career that might have brought him even a touch of happiness ends up sucked into the violence he creates around him and gets killed as well. The absolutely definitive Garth Ennis Punisher (though Greg Rucka also had an epic run) has nightmares about being happy and content because he knows when he wakes up he'll remember that feeling that he can never actually have anymore. That's what killing gets you, more killing. Frank has drastically decreased the number of killers and thieves in the Marvel Universe, sure, but the other heroes have done the same and can still sleep at night and go home to friends and families. The main reason I loved the Punisher Netflix series so much and am actually a little bummed they're making another season is that it ends with Frank NOT killing his enemy and seeking out help. That's it! That's the end of Frank Castle's story arc. When that happens there aren't any more Punisher stories left to tell, we have experienced his narrative. But MORE likely, his story ends with him shot to death somewhere.

So that's why I like the Punisher. When you read a good Punisher story, man, it can really tear you up, because certainly it's cool to watch him find new ways to dispense punishment, but when it's done, he just has to keep killing, he doesn't get the stuff that a real hero does. Because he doesn't deserve it, and he knows it.

Anyway TDK is good but it's not that good.

[Anoat]

I don't remember Lauren Graham winning anything for Bad Santa.

Yeah but I mean...if you want to believe the rumors, Halle was legit gettin fucked by Billy Bob and not acting. They were a thing around that time.

[Zealot]

i don't think you understood my post

Admittedly I was reading the page from the bottom up so whatever you were responding to was unread by me.

[Andalusian girls]

Also I have many thoughts on your TDK take but I want to talk about the Punisher for a second before I get too into it.

I enjoy the Punisher so much specifically because the best visions of the character adhere to the expectations I have for heroes. Marvel has been trying for 60 years to get people to accept the simple premise that every day people, put in an extraordinary situation, can be heroic, and you don't need to be Superman or Wonder Woman to be a hero. Their greatest models all follow a simple moral code of -no killing- and most of them the even more nuanced -no letting someone die-. Spider-Man offers the most extreme example, wherein the only time anyone ever died by his hand it was literally a woman with a death wish running into his hand without him knowing, and Captain America a more realistic approach wherein he makes every attempt to find a solution that doesn't involve killing, but when it comes down to the person trying to kill people or the people about to be killed and no other options exist, he's a soldier first. When it's all said and done, these people ultimately find some sort of reward for their actions, even though they weren't seeking it out. The villain is put aside. People around them are inspired to do better. Someone's life is saved. A lot of the time a situation that was seemingly unconnected to their acts resolves in a way beneficial to them because of something they couldn't have foreseen when they decided to go out and do the right thing. That's the Marvel message, just be a good person, man, and if everyone is just a good person stuff will turn out a lot better for everyone involved, and one way to BE that better person is not let the people being decidedly NOT better drag you down to their level.

And then there's the Punisher, who just shoots everyone to death.

But when you really look at the character's history, and his motivation, and the resolution of almost all his plots along with how all the truly great Punisher stories work out, he proves the point Marvel is trying to make. Here's a dude who solves all his problems through violence, and it just begets more violence. Frank is never happy, he's never done, he will never resolve his trauma. He long ago killed the people who killed his family, and killed the people who hired them, and killed the people who hired THEM. But he's an empty person. All he has is this fight and it's never over, he never gets a respite, or a moment of personal joy, and anyone who's ever gotten close to him in his career that might have brought him even a touch of happiness ends up sucked into the violence he creates around him and gets killed as well. The absolutely definitive Garth Ennis Punisher (though Greg Rucka also had an epic run) has nightmares about being happy and content because he knows when he wakes up he'll remember that feeling that he can never actually have anymore. That's what killing gets you, more killing. Frank has drastically decreased the number of killers and thieves in the Marvel Universe, sure, but the other heroes have done the same and can still sleep at night and go home to friends and families. The main reason I loved the Punisher Netflix series so much and am actually a little bummed they're making another season is that it ends with Frank NOT killing his enemy and seeking out help. That's it! That's the end of Frank Castle's story arc. When that happens there aren't any more Punisher stories left to tell, we have experienced his narrative. But MORE likely, his story ends with him shot to death somewhere.

So that's why I like the Punisher. When you read a good Punisher story, man, it can really tear you up, because certainly it's cool to watch him find new ways to dispense punishment, but when it's done, he just has to keep killing, he doesn't get the stuff that a real hero does. Because he doesn't deserve it, and he knows it.

Anyway TDK is good but it's not that good.

good postins and i agree with your analysis of Ennis/Netflix Punisher. he's always been at his best as an ultraviolent tragedy and not fascy murderporn.

to be honest i may be overrating TDK a little it's been a few years since i've watched the entire thing. but i have seen almost every MCU film and know there's not a great film among them, there's nothing even close to one. might be remembering Nolan too fondly as a counter, especially since Marvel fanboys seem intent on tearing down TDK's legacy these days.

[Xno Kappa]

You didn't think Black Panther was a great movie? Racist.

[Abandon]

Also I have many thoughts on your TDK take but I want to talk about the Punisher for a second before I get too into it.

I enjoy the Punisher so much specifically because the best visions of the character adhere to the expectations I have for heroes. Marvel has been trying for 60 years to get people to accept the simple premise that every day people, put in an extraordinary situation, can be heroic, and you don't need to be Superman or Wonder Woman to be a hero. Their greatest models all follow a simple moral code of -no killing- and most of them the even more nuanced -no letting someone die-. Spider-Man offers the most extreme example, wherein the only time anyone ever died by his hand it was literally a woman with a death wish running into his hand without him knowing, and Captain America a more realistic approach wherein he makes every attempt to find a solution that doesn't involve killing, but when it comes down to the person trying to kill people or the people about to be killed and no other options exist, he's a soldier first. When it's all said and done, these people ultimately find some sort of reward for their actions, even though they weren't seeking it out. The villain is put aside. People around them are inspired to do better. Someone's life is saved. A lot of the time a situation that was seemingly unconnected to their acts resolves in a way beneficial to them because of something they couldn't have foreseen when they decided to go out and do the right thing. That's the Marvel message, just be a good person, man, and if everyone is just a good person stuff will turn out a lot better for everyone involved, and one way to BE that better person is not let the people being decidedly NOT better drag you down to their level.

And then there's the Punisher, who just shoots everyone to death.

But when you really look at the character's history, and his motivation, and the resolution of almost all his plots along with how all the truly great Punisher stories work out, he proves the point Marvel is trying to make. Here's a dude who solves all his problems through violence, and it just begets more violence. Frank is never happy, he's never done, he will never resolve his trauma. He long ago killed the people who killed his family, and killed the people who hired them, and killed the people who hired THEM. But he's an empty person. All he has is this fight and it's never over, he never gets a respite, or a moment of personal joy, and anyone who's ever gotten close to him in his career that might have brought him even a touch of happiness ends up sucked into the violence he creates around him and gets killed as well. The absolutely definitive Garth Ennis Punisher (though Greg Rucka also had an epic run) has nightmares about being happy and content because he knows when he wakes up he'll remember that feeling that he can never actually have anymore. That's what killing gets you, more killing. Frank has drastically decreased the number of killers and thieves in the Marvel Universe, sure, but the other heroes have done the same and can still sleep at night and go home to friends and families. The main reason I loved the Punisher Netflix series so much and am actually a little bummed they're making another season is that it ends with Frank NOT killing his enemy and seeking out help. That's it! That's the end of Frank Castle's story arc. When that happens there aren't any more Punisher stories left to tell, we have experienced his narrative. But MORE likely, his story ends with him shot to death somewhere.

So that's why I like the Punisher. When you read a good Punisher story, man, it can really tear you up, because certainly it's cool to watch him find new ways to dispense punishment, but when it's done, he just has to keep killing, he doesn't get the stuff that a real hero does. Because he doesn't deserve it, and he knows it.

Anyway TDK is good but it's not that good.

i actually enjoyed reading this

[Abandon]

You didn't think Black Panther was a great movie? Racist.

jokin aside, i thoroughly enjoyed the movie

[Andalusian girls]

You didn't think Black Panther was a great movie? Racist.

i'm Mexican being racist is part of my culture

[Abandon]

fact

[Gredival]

i don't think you understood my post

You said Marvel sandbox has no consequences. I say DKR resets all the costs of TDK.

You say I oversimplified the themes of TDK. I said they are equally present in TWS, just with the villain being extreme order vs. extreme chaos.

You say TDK is ahead by showing the way order vs. chaos manifested as "warring for the human soul," I argue that that Cap exemplifies this as much as Bat-Bale did.

[Ksandra]

The Fifth Element is also top tier. Gets absolutely no love because there weren't any repressed paraplegic homosexuals with aids.

My son is named "Corben" after the Fifth Element. ^^

They spell it Korben in the movie, though, so his is a mix of the "standard" spelling "Corbin" and FE's spelling 'cause I didn't like the K.



I was 8 months in and we still hadn't found a name we both liked for a boy, and I looked up Bruce Willis movies since we both love him, and we were like OMG MULTIPASS YES

[Ksandra]

Also might have gone with Hudson for Hudson Hawk but felt that was too whitey.