PC Principal VI: What The Fuck Am I Reading Part Deux

[archibaldcrane]

Might be old news but Ricky Gervais is TERFing it up hard

https://twitter.com/rickygervais/sta...053374976?s=19

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[BerenTebogo]

Might be old news but Ricky Gervais is TERFing it up hard

https://twitter.com/rickygervais/sta...053374976?s=19

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Haven't people been on him for a while for being "problematic"? I can't keep up.

Archi, you know you can turn that setting off in tapatalk right?

[Fondue]

Might be old news but Ricky Gervais is TERFing it up hard

https://twitter.com/rickygervais/sta...053374976?s=19

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jarvis dupont is a parody account

[kuronosan]

This is the one thing I'm struggling with in regards to the trans community.

Given you identify as female how could you possibly understand what it's like to experience female discrimination? Like, in general, pre-transition?

[archibaldcrane]

Pre-transition trans women experience a different sort of anti-woman discrimination than cis women do, that's not really a question.

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[archibaldcrane]

But like, I'm a cis guy and have a reasonable understanding of what anti-women discrimination is like. People talk about it, how they feel about it, in what circumstances it occurs, etc. Basic empathy gets you most of the way there.

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[Fiye]

This is the one thing I'm struggling with in regards to the trans community.

Given you identify as female how could you possibly understand what it's like to experience female discrimination? Like, in general, pre-transition?

Obviously you can't because you can't substitute your experience for something entire. Also I'm not sure why this matters because as Archi has explained you experience a radically different discrimination especially as you start transitioning.

Also that question is a yuge landmine and kind of leads to the though process that 'You couldn't have experienced discrimination as a woman growing up therefore you can never be a real woman' which is where the acronym TERF comes in.

[kuronosan]

Okay, but that's the part I'm not understanding. Y'all are sitting here acting like you don't need to experience discrimination to know the experience but that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about things like "oh I know the pain of having a period cause I'm a woman". Like, how does someone arguing that point make them a TERF? One needn't have a period to understand what it must feel like, but I'm confused at the notion that a transgender woman necessarily understands it better.

Also I should note that I personally don't think not having experienced something doesn't mean it can't be experienced. I'm just confused on how someone can know what it is like by virtue of their situation.

Like Rachel Dolezal. I sure she faced discrimination, but I'd be confused if she said "as a black female my family battled decades of discrimination because of our race".

[Fiye]

Okay, but that's the part I'm not understanding. Y'all are sitting here acting like you don't need to experience discrimination to know the experience but that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about things like "oh I know the pain of having a period cause I'm a woman". Like, how does someone arguing that point make them a TERF? One needn't have a period to understand what it must feel like, but I'm confused at the notion that a transgender woman necessarily understands it better.

Because those are the kinds of talking points that are used by trans exclusionary radical feminists to exclude trans women from being included in the demographic (While also refusing to discuss trans men to an extent.). There are women who are born without uterus's who get the full genuine experience. My daughter is too young to really understand discrimination again women yet she is also a girl.

I'm not trying to say those questions are valid. But the answer to those are that transwomen don't experience periods and don't have a history of being discriminated against because of their gender. But the first doesn't really matter and the second will be rapidly fixed as said trans woman experiences that if they're passing or they'll experience something far worse.

[Eurell]

I'm talking about things like "oh I know the pain of having a period cause I'm a woman". Like, how does someone arguing that point make them a TERF? One needn't have a period to understand what it must feel like, but I'm confused at the notion that a transgender woman necessarily understands it better.

I think the issue is that no one is legitimately making that argument. Like, I'm sure e can find a few idiots on tumblr or twitter or something, but they are either kids or delusional and not worth taking into serious consideration. So when people make arguments against it, as though they are fighting back against politicians making policies in line with those beliefs, in comes across as a dishonest argument.

[BerenTebogo]

https://mobile.twitter.com/scienceve...061184?lang=en

Since there was just a big discussion on sex

[Zealot]

I feel like I agree more with the dissent than the original poster.

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[guartz]

https://mobile.twitter.com/scienceve...061184?lang=en

Since there was just a big discussion on sex

I wonder how much of this is a result of scientists just being afraid to call these conditions birth defects.

[Zealot]

See but that's the thing, I also don't particularly care to tell someone "no, the way you feel is wrong because science doesn't classify things in a way that comports with it, so you just have a birth defect/mental illness."

It's a lot more reasonable to say "you know you my friend, so I support it."

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[BerenTebogo]

The binary concept of sex came about at a time when even the greatest science fiction writers couldn't foresee the technology we'd have and how it could enhance our understanding of "obvious" concepts.

If there's anyone afraid of terminology here it's the people hanging on to something because it's what they learned in 6th grade biology.

Not long ago I was in the camp of just not giving a shit and avoiding this because I thought it was ridiculous. I was wrong. The science is there. Shit changes. There's plenty of shit out there in the sky with a formal name of a totally wrong class of object (star that is actually a galaxy, etc) because when we discovered them we didn't have any idea about the shit we would eventually learn.

Edit: ACTUALLY this Astronomy classification argument has an interesting parallel here. Pluto getting demoted to dwarf planet status was part of an effort to expand and improve our characterization of planetary bodies in an era where we are discovering extra-solar planets at an exponentially growing rate. It wasn't something done lightly, and it wasn't fully agreed upon even within the planetary science community - plenty wanted to retain Pluto's planetary status for any number of reasons (history, disagreement with the classifications, etc). The scientific arguments within the community have standing on both sides, it is true that the lines for classification need to be drawn somewhere, that's fine. The fun parallel to this issue is that Pluto being demoted brought out the opinions of EVERY GOD DAMN UNEDUCATED PERSON ON THE PLANET who were 100% sure that they knew more than the planetary scientists around the world who have worked in the field for decades. Why? Well because they learned in 5th grade that Pluto was a planet. There was a song and everything. These motherfuckers had to learn a mnemonic for a science test and it stuck with them, therefore the idea that these "so-called scientists" could up and overturn their worldview with their "research" was ludicrous. Clearly this was science run amok in the face of common sense. After all, EVERYONE KNOWS that Pluto is a planet! Right? ...Right?

[milez]

Lol you got issues

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[Zealot]

The binary concept of sex came about at a time when even the greatest science fiction writers couldn't foresee the technology we'd have and how it could enhance our understanding of "obvious" concepts.

If there's anyone afraid of terminology here it's the people hanging on to something because it's what they learned in 6th grade biology.

Not long ago I was in the camp of just not giving a shit and avoiding this because I thought it was ridiculous. I was wrong. The science is there. Shit changes. There's plenty of shit out there in the sky with a formal name of a totally wrong class of object (star that is actually a galaxy, etc) because when we discovered them we didn't have any idea about the shit we would eventually learn.

Edit: ACTUALLY this Astronomy classification argument has an interesting parallel here. Pluto getting demoted to dwarf planet status was part of an effort to expand and improve our characterization of planetary bodies in an era where we are discovering extra-solar planets at an exponentially growing rate. It wasn't something done lightly, and it wasn't fully agreed upon even within the planetary science community - plenty wanted to retain Pluto's planetary status for any number of reasons (history, disagreement with the classifications, etc). The scientific arguments within the community have standing on both sides, it is true that the lines for classification need to be drawn somewhere, that's fine. The fun parallel to this issue is that Pluto being demoted brought out the opinions of EVERY GOD DAMN UNEDUCATED PERSON ON THE PLANET who were 100% sure that they knew more than the planetary scientists around the world who have worked in the field for decades. Why? Well because they learned in 5th grade that Pluto was a planet. There was a song and everything. These motherfuckers had to learn a mnemonic for a science test and it stuck with them, therefore the idea that these "so-called scientists" could up and overturn their worldview with their "research" was ludicrous. Clearly this was science run amok in the face of common sense. After all, EVERYONE KNOWS that Pluto is a planet! Right? ...Right?

Hm, that's a good way of putting it and I'll have to consider it.

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[kuronosan]

Yea I feel like that was spot on.

[Gredival]

I haven't been paying attention to the trans discussion in the last few pages, but just read an article about Jazz Jennings who gained notoriety in an interview with Barbara Walters for being denied female identification at age 6. Thirteen years later she is now in college at Harvard. She went through all her childhood as a girl and had reassignment surgery.

I think her unique experience highlights the complexity of the TERF issue. I definitely think that excluding transwomen issues from feminism wholesale is wrong, her story shows that the experience of growing up trans is definitely different from just growing up female. Which in turn is different from growing up male and transitioning as an adult, transitioning while a teen, growing up non-binary, etc. It's important to recognize that and doing so shouldn't be considered exclusionary.

I would relate it to the experience of those of us who grow up adopted and disconnected from our native racial backgrounds. Your home culture is too different to fit in with the people you look like, but you are too ethnic to fit in with white friends, so you definitely grow up with a bit of cultural dysphoria unique to your background on top of the soul searching experience all adopted kids go through. My experience of being Chinese is radically different than the exchange students I teach who have been brainwashed by the CCP and object whenever I say that China is bad. Those Chinese kids have a different experience from 1st gen ABCs born to immigrants, whose experience is different from those in families here long enough to be white washed, whose experience is different from biracial kids. All of us can claim the identity of Chinese, but the subdivisions often so divergent that we have only ancestry as a commonality.

It is not wrong to say that transwomen cannot relate to some of the experiences of being female that women with XX chromosomes have. But in the end all that matters is they connect to some of the basic ones.

[Fiye]

It is not wrong to say that transwomen cannot relate to some of the experiences of being female that women with XX chromosomes have. But in the end all that matters is they connect to some of the basic ones.

It is not wrong but its become coded rhetorical by radical feminists in an attempt to keep transwomen (Specifically transwomen because transmen not remotely brought up in the same context) out of pro-feminist movements. TERFdom is also much, much more prominent in great britian in no part thanks to mumsnet.